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[Jonah A. Kort]

Hello Friends I'm new here.    HI!!!  I'm pretty new to the recording scene but I'm learning. A lot.  So I'm going to be hopefully embarking on a new project for a friend.  He told me that his band really wants a dirtier sound to their recordings like The Black Keys.  They're basically blues/butt rock band and their previous effort is over produced making them sound more butt rock than blues.  No good.
I was planning on just recording them live in my studio err basement everyone and their amps together.  Real simple setup, as follows.  Drums mono overhead and kick. Guitar and bass miked and keyboards direct and probably an amp too just so there is no need for headphones. And overdub the vocals after the fact. I'm not really worried about bleed but I'm terrified of phase problems.  Should I set everything up close and have equal distance from say the snare drum?  Or keep everything at a distance? What do you guys think? -jonah

[grantis]

This probably doesn't answer your actual question, but I'd like to recommend tight-miking the drums too, if you have enough channels free.  You may not be worried about bleed, but if you're only going to have 1 mic for all the drums (save for the kick), you'll need it to be as clean as possible.  Tight mics will help with that.

Those Black Crowes records are definitely down and dirty, but the drums are still super punchy, if memory serves me right.

Phase-wise, I guess I don't understand your question.  How is this any different than matching phase on stuff that's already on tape?  

[rankus]

Grant,, Black Keys :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBPGm4Fbo0Q


My advice to the original poster would be to keep the amps close to the drum kit to minimize the time delay between mics.

Perhaps put the bass amp directly in front of the bass drum, with guitar amps to either side of the kit... all facing away from the kit... this would be my starting point.

[Jonah A. Kort]

grant richard wrote on Sun, 17 August 2008 15:35

I'd like to recommend tight-miking the drums too   Phase-wise, I guess I don't understand your question.  How is this any different than matching phase on stuff that's already on tape?

I will take your recommendation.  I was wrestling with that and I realized it would be silly to not mic the toms and snare also. I think I was just trying to be cool.      

I did feel a little silly ask about phase. Phase solutions are generally a button press away.  

Rankus That sounds like a good starting point, thanks.  I was thinking about making the snare drum the center as in making sure all of the  guitar, bass, overhead microphones are equal distance from it.  I think this is what I was originally getting at.  

[grantis]

rankus wrote on Sun, 17 August 2008 16:13

Grant,, Black Keys : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBPGm4Fbo0Q

Haha wow, this is what working doubles will do to ya.

Still, the drums are punchy.

[grantis]

Jonah A. Kort wrote on Sun, 17 August 2008 18:05

I did feel a little silly ask about phase. Phase solutions are generally a button press away.

Phase reverse buttons are handy, but if the phase is out only 90 degrees, flipping the phase 180 degrees with the button may only help a little bit, if at all.  Try to nail the phase to tape.  Save the headache for later.

Rick, I like your idea!  I didn't even think about the time delay.

[Jonah A. Kort]

[/quote]

Phase reverse buttons are handy, but if the phase is out only 90 degrees, flipping the phase 180 degrees with the button may only help a little bit, if at all.  Try to nail the phase to tape.  Save the headache for later.

[/quote]

For real.

[grantis]

Wait a second...Jonah!!!!  It just hit me that I know you...in...real life!!!  Hahahahaha.

[j.hall]

use dynamic mics ont he overheads.  it will help minimize bleed.  i've recorded quite a bit like this.  you can get really good results if the band is patient through setup.

[marcel]

I agree with Rick about keeping amps and drum kit close together.  I have done it this way, with guitar amps literally right beside the drum kit facing the same way the drummer is facing, and it worked well.  We used small amps, may not work so well with a dimed Plexi or whatever.

I would, however, suggest that you should at least be prepared to DI or isolate the bass.  The bass amp will be in everything (due to the nature of sound at low frequency) by the time it is loud enough to be heard.  You could filter it out, but there will be a price for doing so.

I would also say that the smaller the room, the more dead it will need to be not to be a total mess.  When I did this, I used a widely (as wide as the room) spaced pair of LDCs (414s) to get a blend-able room sound, instead of trying to get room sound out of the close mics in a relatively dead room.

Take your time setting up, check mics in pairs (in mono) for phase issues...

[overlordofanalog]

I recently did something like this.  I recorded a band's album in one day to 24 track tape, everybody playing at the same time in the same room.  I learned a lot that day.
For drums, I used only 4 mics, kick, snare, and a Glyn Johns overhead technique. I don't see why you would need to use dynamics for OHs.  Bleed into the overheads wasn't really an issue.   I placed the guitar amps about 15 feet away facing each other, with one 421 on each amp.  Bass was recorded both direct and through an amp, though the amp was in a separate room. Keys went direct.  We recorded vocals later.  We didn't use a click, and just went through passes until everybody got everything right.  The band was really well rehearsed so it only took us about 14 hours (including set up and sounds) to get every song finished.  

Things I would do differently (besides taking more time): I wish I could have isolated the guitar mics better, but my school only has two really shitty gobos, and the guitar sounds I got required a lot of work after to make them not sound thin (I rolled a lot of low end off during tracking to try to keep the crap out).  Also, I wish I could have been able to put more mics on everything, not just for the sake of using more mics, but so that I would have more options when mixing later.  

Here is one of the songs I just finished mixing (with the band's permission, of course).  Maybe I'll ask them if I can post one of the songs for an IMP, it would be cool to see everybody's take on one of these.  

http://www.filedropper.com/withoutamapbounce3071_1

[rankus]

Another technique that I have used was to set up the gtr amps in a straight line with the front of the kick drum facing the same direction as the drummer... on each side of the kick drum. this worked very well.  This was a punk band with two guitars and bass.  Marshals and a loud bass amp.  I was very surprised there was very little leakage... I was in fact hoping to get a very leaky vibe, but this setup was great.  No opened back amps in this type of setup though

[Greg Dixon]

I spent the first 10 or so years recording bands in a similar setup, although it was a purpose built studio.

I agree about DIing the bass, then keep the amp as quiet as they can get away with. The bass mic track is unlikely to be usable, but it'll sound less messy that way.

The main thing to remember when recording a band in one room, is balance. If the band is balanced, you shouldn't have any real problems. Where you run into problems, is when one instrument is way louder than another one. If you solo a mic and you hear more than a ghost of the other instruments, the other instruments are too loud or that one is too soft. Quad boxes can be a problem, as you get them to a level where you can just hear the guitar in the drums, but you solo the guitar mic and there's heaps of everything else, as the mic is only getting a bit over a quarter of the level.

[John Suitcase]

I record this way all the time, on location in all sorts of weird rooms. I usually set the band up with all the amps facing the drummer from out front. The bass amp faces the kick drum, often as close as 6 or 7 feet out. The guitars are each side of the bass amp, facing the drummer, and usually up on chairs to reduce comb filtering from the floor. The only thing I do a little differently is to sometimes bring the overheads in from the front. There are a couple of projects in my 'session notes' section of my site where I detail the setups, http://suitcaserecordings.com/sessionnotes.htm:

Tweeker Chic, Hellas Mounds, and Blizzard of '77 are all done this way. The only thing to keep in mind is that you won't be able to do much punching in. I usually have the band do a couple takes of each song, then I edit the whole takes together, like you would on tape. That way, you get the best section from each take, and there isn't any weirdness when a punch comes in and any bleed on that track disappears.

I find that bleed is a non-issue most of the time, if you are somewhat careful during setup, things work out.

[Nick Sevilla]

Jonah A. Kort wrote on Sun, 17 August 2008 12:49

Hello Friends I'm new here.    HI!!!  I'm pretty new to the recording scene but I'm learning. A lot.  So I'm going to be hopefully embarking on a new project for a friend.  He told me that his band really wants a dirtier sound to their recordings like The Black Keys.  They're basically blues/butt rock band and their previous effort is over produced making them sound more butt rock than blues.  No good. I was planning on just recording them live in my studio err basement everyone and their amps together.  Real simple setup, as follows.  Drums mono overhead and kick. Guitar and bass miked and keyboards direct and probably an amp too just so there is no need for headphones. And overdub the vocals after the fact. I'm not really worried about bleed but I'm terrified of phase problems.  Should I set everything up close and have equal distance from say the snare drum?  Or keep everything at a distance? What do you guys think? -jonah

They first need to be going for a more "cock-rock" type rock, that butt-rock. The type of dirty sound they need is called "Balls", and not "Shit", so as soon as they change their type of Rock, they will be getting what they need.

So do not worry so much about mic placement, but where the Rock is coming from. If it comes from the Butt, no good, if it comes from the frontal areas, then better for them.

       

[Mike K.]

A slightly more philosophical piece of advice...

If you are just starting, I think the most important thing is to take note of what you are doing during setup, pay attention to how it sounds while tracking and mixing (obviously), and afterwards try to figure out why it came out that way. Don't stress too much about the details that you don't have the experience to make informed decisions about, those things will come naturally with time. Focus on what you can control at this point, like making the players comfortable and happy, getting the best sound from the instruments and amps, making sure everyone can hear each other, etc etc. And I've also learned that if you appear confident, the band will like the way it sounds. Good luck!

-Mike

[Jonah A. Kort]

Actually I finished this project months ago...


www.myspace.com/albanyrecordings


It's the only song on the player...