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[,]

Hi William,

I've seen you mention in a few threads that the durations of notes are often wrong when a guitarist plays bass.  I'm hoping you can expand on that.  Do you just mean that guitarists are less likely to understand the importance of release time?  Or is a quarter note not exactly a quarter note on bass; i.e., are you saying that bassists should release a little early or a little late?  Can you give examples of good and bad playing in that regard?

Thanks

[wwittman]

I mean that guitar players tend to not think about giving full value to an 1/8, for example.

in GENERAL, guitar players playing bass tend to make all the notes shorter.
Some of that is technical (the part of the finger they fret with) but some of it is just the mindset.


Obviously anyone can play whole notes.
But in a busier pattern or one with syncopation, it becomes more obvious.

I always think McCartney is a great example.

You can always find people who know all the NOTES he played, but it's very difficult to actually play those notes with the same attack and durations and articulation that HE played them with.

In Paul's case, people often play the notes too LONG, not only too short... but either way.
What makes him sound like him is the length of the notes in a pattern.

[,]

McCartney's an interesting example, because I think of him as often playing in a pulsating, staccato style, as in Silly Love Songs, or this one:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=obFcsEtFIKA

But I think I can hear what you're saying.  In the video above you can hear the buzz of the frets as he releases each note, and that buzz falls right on the "and" beats.  

Thanks for your detailed reply, I really appreciate it.

[wwittman]

He doesn't make a big thing of it, but notice how he slightly releases the pressure of his fretting finger after each note.
That's how he's controlling the durations.

plus he's playing on the flat of his finger just under the tip, not ON the tips, like a guitar player.

[littlehat]

I'm not WW (obviously), but guitar players also take a while to figure out a note on the bass begins when you let go of the string...

[Silvertone]

Also the guitarist many times doesn't understand the importance of what Tony Levin would call "the good note".  That is the "note" you play that allows the drummer to play that great fill or the guitarist to shred that great riff.

Also playing in front of the drummer or just behind the drummer can create the feel that the song should have. Many people who aren't bass players don't get this. Playing perfectly in time doesn't necessarily apply in these circumstances.

Bottom line is bass playing is a "feel factor", in fact feel is more important than technical ability (that only became popular when Jaco came along). Before that everybody was trying to emulate James Jamerson and Bobby Babbit!

I also once read that a womans body resonates at 60 cycles... that's the reason they dig bass players and Harleys so much... we both have the ability to get them warm

[Emil "Gus" Gawaziuk]

Silvertone wrote on Sat, 26 July 2008 05:50

I also once read that a womans body resonates at 60 cycles... that's the reason they dig bass players and Harleys so much... we both have the ability to get them warm

Ahh..... more like strong fingers and good feel (was that for women, or the song.... hell I can't remember any more)

As a long time bassist, it is all about the feel.  It isn't the notes you play, but rather how they are played.  Get locked in with the drummer, push a little, pull a little.  Most guitarists that pinch hit on bass have two issues.  Too light of a touch, and a tendency to over play.  Even the Victor Wootens of the world still have an amazing ability to lock in with the drummer, staying in the pocket no matter what they are playing.

It isn't really an attack/release thing, it is more of a total timing to fit the piece thing.

[Barry Hufker]

I've never thought of myself as a "bass player", rather as someone who can play the bass.  After watching the McCartney link above I then watched a video where a fellow shows (and of course plays) the bass part for Hey Bulldog.

I now realize I can't "play the bass".  I play "at the bass".


I am now extremely depressed.  No joke.  I'll never be that good....

[astroshack]

wwittman wrote on Sat, 26 July 2008 13:01

He doesn't make a big thing of it, but notice how he slightly releases the pressure of his fretting finger after each note. That's how he's controlling the durations.

and it is actually not the correct way to do that, despite it being done by one of the planet's most instantly recognisable bass masters. The correct way to control sustain is by using the fingers doing the plucking (damping the string between plucks). This gives a much more elegant result, but results in less pulsation (depending on the skill of the player). No fret buzz or unintended modulation occurs if done "the correct way", but McCartney's method can give better results for some circumstances.

Most guitarists play bass with a plectrum. That in itself can be severely limiting if the song calls for true pizzicato.

Cheers,

Sean  

[littlehat]

Emil "Gus" Gawaziuk wrote on Sat, 26 July 2008 08:14

It isn't the notes you play, but rather how they are played.

Well we all agree on this.
I usually just play F#...

But with serious feel.

[mgod]

What a great video. That's the most fun I've had listening to him since his first solo album. I'd like to see one of these for "Baby, You're A Rich Man", in which he achieved true godhood. How he chooses to articulate each note is really the great thing about Paul. Geoff Emerick told me that when it was just the two of them in #2 late at night, overdubbing bass parts last, Paul would get bleeding fingers from working so hard to get each note to speak the way he wanted.

The tedious obsession with technically amazing playing began long before Pastorious. Stan Clarke had a big effect there some years earlier, when fusion became the thing for many.

This idea of the "Correct" way of stopping a note being to use the plucking hand is hooey - that's classical guitar technique, and exactly why guitar players can't play bass. Tell Larry Graham he's wrong, and pity any bassist who was led so astray by some guitar teacher. If we restricted ourselves to that, music would be so much poorer. The electric bass is less than 60 years old. How we play it IS the correct way to play it. Which is any way at all.

T. Levin is right as always, and its one of the amazing things to me, how when guitar players produce they often want the bassist to play the way THEY would, with lots of notes.

DS

[,]

My natural technique seems to be to stop the string with both hands, but not on a song like this one with so many fast rests.  As far as feel and not playing too many notes, that to me is just musicianship, and something a lot of people get wrong on every instrument.  Especially guitar players, and these days, singers.

[MDM,]

McCartney was maybe influenced by tuba players, I believe his dad played one?

http://it.youtube.com/watch?v=mxjEnzZK7T0

you can get good ideas from tuba bass players regarding note length.

[MDM,]

listen to the bass on this:

http://it.youtube.com/watch?v=niatkY_W7jU

[Emil "Gus" Gawaziuk]

Really depends on what you're playing as well with the whole muting thing.  Most of the time, left hand (neck) muting is the most efficient, however, right hand muting is beneficial, and has its own unique sonic signature.  As far as using a pick? SOmetimes it is necessary just to get that attack (punk, metal, hard rawk) or makes life easier when hammering along in 16ths. Then again, can get a really nifty rockabilly tone if need be as well.

Still, it is feel. What I really notice is when I grab a guitar, I tend to play it like I would bass.  Really doesn't work that well either (well, and everything is just smaller.  I feel so delicate playing 6 string!) as there is a completely different feel to the instrument itself, not to mention the notes being played.

Sir Paul has just a badass sense of timing. Always makes a great little pocket. Allen Woody was also great at it.  

No one ever mentions Carol Kaye.....

[rankus]

Also of note is that plucking with the thumb adds more bottom generally and is  a bit more "tubby" than fingers. Another aspect of that Paul sound IMO.

I prefer muting with the fretting hand as well. And agree that the feel can be quite different with the muting technique... one of the real "feel" aspects of the instrument.

Barry:  I feel your pain!  After "playing" bass for more than thirty years myself, its tough to realize that we may never be "world class"

 

[leonardo valvassori]

 I love how Paul rarely looks at his hands while he performs.

He also seems unafraid of that area between the 5th and 9nth frets.

Saw some footage of his Quebec show from last week, and um, he is still the master.

Every note counts. None are wasted. All serve the melody.

(sometimes IS the melody).

And, btw, if any of you saw Cyndi L this summer, you know that WW is no slouch either.

[,]

Leonardo Valvassori wrote on Sat, 26 July 2008 11:41

And, btw, if any of you saw Cyndi L this summer, you know that WW is no slouch either.

I was in the gym today, trying to ignore the awful music on the loudspeaker but I recognized the melody.  It was CL's "Time after Time," sung by some guy, massively autotuned.  Dreadful.  

No wonder I hate going to the gym.  (Yeah, that's it.)

[Electric Warrior]

you're going to the wrong gym
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pv5zWaTEVkI

am I the only one who likes McCartney's rough outlining of "Ever Present Past" better than the finished song?

[Edvaard]

Electric Warrior wrote on Sat, 26 July 2008 16:41

you're going to the wrong gym http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pv5zWaTEVkI am I the only one who likes McCartney's rough outlining of "Ever Present Past" better than the finished song?

Probably not. But his and JL's ability to 'snatch things out of the air' that were going by all of us the whole time might go some way to explaining their success.

It's hard to describe such a title "Ever Present Past" as genius when some of us have all thought the same thing at one time or another, but there it is.

WW, however, has pointed to the issue here.

It's a matter of 'filling the space' correctly, not just attacking the note at some proper time.

And R Shelton's link to that great P McCartney 'bass lesson' with it's staccato lines just proved the point all the more.

And yes, Carol Kaye has a great website too.

[Tom L]

rankus wrote on Sat, 26 July 2008 10:10

Also of note is that plucking with the thumb adds more bottom generally and is  a bit more "tubby" than fingers. Another aspect of that Paul sound IMO.

I've always been fascinated by how he uses his thumb.  His control of it and that thumpy attack. Signature sound.  Not to mention being so melodic yet rock solid anchored. Oh yeah, and totally groovin, and...

[Bryson]

Dig when Paul goes to the F... He lands on it with his index finger, then changes to the middle finger to afford desired fingering for the following changes. He doesn't do it the same way every time though (which I can appreciate).

[McAllister]

Quote:

and it is actually not the correct way to do that, despite it being done by one of the planet's most instantly recognisable bass masters. The correct way to control sustain is by using the fingers doing the plucking (damping the string between plucks). This gives a much more elegant result, but results in less pulsation (depending on the skill of the player). No fret buzz or unintended modulation occurs if done "the correct way", but McCartney's method can give better results for some circumstances.

Huh.

I've been playing bass for a lot of years and have never heard there is a "correct way" to control sustain.

Bottom line: it either works or it doesn't. The technique that gets you there is irrelevant.

"Hello, Sir Paul, did you know that you've actually been doing it wrong?"

M

[Devin Knutson]

As an add on to all the great advice given already, my take is that many guitar players, because of the way they are used to constructing phrases, often just don't hear rests as musical.  On bass, the note-off is just as important, sometimes moreso, than the note-on.

I'm working a tune right now, and after many more complex permutations, the bass line has evolved into straight quarter notes.  onnnnnne - rest - threeeee - rest.  The rests are choked sharply, so that the release becomes a purcussive note.

[Berolzheimer]

Devin Knutson wrote on Mon, 28 July 2008 12:38

As an add on to all the great advice given already, my take is that many guitar players, because of the way they are used to constructing phrases, often just don't hear rests as musical.  On bass, the note-off is just as important, sometimes moreso, than the note-on. I'm working a tune right now, and after many more complex permutations, the bass line has evolved into straight quarter notes.  onnnnnne - rest - threeeee - rest.  The rests are choked sharply, so that the release becomes a purcussive note.

You can hear that quite clearly on the Paul VId too, there's a little chirp of fret buzz on the release of each note, exactly in time.  NIce.  I'm sure it's been there all along in all his recordings, adding a little percussive flavor.

[Emil "Gus" Gawaziuk]

Something else you may notice is a lot of players seldom use open a, d, or g (standard tuning for simplicity) unless absolutely necessary.  Once again, for reasons of crispness to the note, and also for moving to the next note.  One thing I was shown when I first started playing 18 years ago was to avoid using an open string if at all possible.  I didn't "get" it at the time, but several years later it became more and more apparent as I diversified what I was learning/playing/writing.  

Also, there is no such thing as "correct" fret hand posture.  The correct way is the way that is comfortable for the player.  If you have to hang your thumb over, then do so (hell, use it to fret a note if you want!).  That little bit of fret buzz is just fine, and also gives a great indicator of a smooth consistent note release timing.  I like it, and really makes me feel OK with my playing as I try not to avoid little buzzes like that at all anymore.

[,]

Emil "Gus" Gawaziuk wrote on Mon, 28 July 2008 18:51

Also, there is no such thing as "correct" fret hand posture.  The correct way is the way that is comfortable for the player.  If you have to hang your thumb over, then do so (hell, use it to fret a note if you want!).

"Correct" can be comfortable, once you build the finger strength.  Hanging your thumb over the neck is like walking knee-deep in the mud.  You can do it, but it's awfully slow and inefficient.

[wwittman]

Tom L wrote on Sat, 26 July 2008 22:23

rankus wrote on Sat, 26 July 2008 10:10 Also of note is that plucking with the thumb adds more bottom generally and is  a bit more "tubby" than fingers. Another aspect of that Paul sound IMO. I've always been fascinated by how he uses his thumb.  His control of it and that thumpy attack. Signature sound.  Not to mention being so melodic yet rock solid anchored. Oh yeah, and totally groovin, and...

although MOST of his greatest stuff was played with a pick

[wwittman]

McAllister wrote on Mon, 28 July 2008 13:14

Quote: and it is actually not the correct way to do that, despite it being done by one of the planet's most instantly recognisable bass masters. The correct way to control sustain is by using the fingers doing the plucking (damping the string between plucks). This gives a much more elegant result, but results in less pulsation (depending on the skill of the player). No fret buzz or unintended modulation occurs if done "the correct way", but McCartney's method can give better results for some circumstances. Huh. I've been playing bass for a lot of years and have never heard there is a "correct way" to control sustain. Bottom line: it either works or it doesn't. The technique that gets you there is irrelevant. "Hello, Sir Paul, did you know that you've actually been doing it wrong?" M

FWIW, without thinking too much about it, I THINK I almost ALWAYS lift my finger pressure between notes, (like Paul is doing there) and if necessary ADD palm muting with my right hand when playing with a pick, or finger muting if plucking.

But I think it also keeps my left (fretting) hand in the rhythm

[wwittman]

Devin Knutson wrote on Mon, 28 July 2008 15:38

As an add on to all the great advice given already, my take is that many guitar players, because of the way they are used to constructing phrases, often just don't hear rests as musical.  On bass, the note-off is just as important, sometimes moreso, than the note-on. I'm working a tune right now, and after many more complex permutations, the bass line has evolved into straight quarter notes.  onnnnnne - rest - threeeee - rest.  The rests are choked sharply, so that the release becomes a purcussive note.

yes, and you might try, assuming there is a snare on 2 and 4, to release the not JUST exactly on the snare hit so that it almost feels like the snare is 'playing" the rest

[wwittman]

Emil "Gus" Gawaziuk wrote on Mon, 28 July 2008 21:51

Something else you may notice is a lot of players seldom use open a, d, or g (standard tuning for simplicity) unless absolutely necessary.

I've heard that axiom, but I have to say I play open strings a LOT.

I tend to choose the note position based on the SOUND it creates except in those instances where speed dictates a fingering.

But there is a big difference in sound between D on the 10th fret of the E string, D on the fifth fret of the A string, and D on the open D string.

Sometimes I'll even use one position for a verse, and another for the chorus, just to give the chorus a different tonal variation.

[leonardo valvassori]

Emil "Gus" Gawaziuk wrote on Mon, 28 July 2008 21:51

Something else you may notice is a lot of players seldom use open a, d, or g (standard tuning for simplicity) unless absolutely necessary.

Hmm. I do notice that.
However, I use ALL my open strings.
Cello is my first instrument;--open strings can be your friend when you have to shift positions.
Same with bass.
Yes there are times when tone matching is an issue if the part is very exposed, but I find that such huge tone differences between open and closed notes is indicative of a technique/execution issue.

Or, just plain shitty tone.

Ever watch Tony Garnier (Bob Dylan) play bass?

[maxim]

all the tone VARIATION lies within the left hand's fingertips

with open strings, otoh, it's either "on" or "off"...

[Emil "Gus" Gawaziuk]

That's what I was getting at..... the consistency factor. And, it does help nicely if one is playing in position.  Playing upright, arco, open strings are much more your friend when a position shift is called for in a piece (thinking back, I think it has been approximately 12 years since I played an upright with a bow, and more recently I have had the odd chance to play one pizz in an attempt to learn the finer points of rockabilly style playing)

Ahh, the nuances of such a seemingly simple instrument!  Fun!  Not often the subtleties get discussed.  Always been a rock player, some jazz and classical as well years ago.  Lately, I find myself appreciating motown and other very fluid styles far more often just for the sheer way the parts drive both the melody and the rhythm with ease.  The perspectives in this thread alone have made me examine even my own playing style a lot more, which is never a bad thing.  

[McAllister]

Quote:

I've heard that axiom, but I have to say I play open strings a LOT. I tend to choose the note position based on the SOUND it creates except in those instances where speed dictates a fingering. But there is a big difference in sound between D on the 10th fret of the E string, D on the fifth fret of the A string, and D on the open D string. Sometimes I'll even use one position for a verse, and another for the chorus, just to give the chorus a different tonal variation.

Yes. That exactly.

Quote:

all the tone VARIATION lies within the left hand's fingertips with open strings, otoh, it's either "on" or "off"...

True, but you can control a lot of tone with how your fingers pluck the string. Using different parts of the fingers (more meat), to create a softer attack. Makes open strings sound fretted.

M

[rankus]

As well as where your plucking... further fwd, towards neck, for more bottom, further back for brightness/ more attack... combined with how much "meat" on the plucking fingers there are a TON of tonal variations. (try finger tips vrs. side of fingers, vrs. thumb etc.)

[wwittman]

maxim wrote on Tue, 29 July 2008 01:56

all the tone VARIATION lies within the left hand's fingertips with open strings, otoh, it's either "on" or "off"...

I don't agree

both hands count, just about equally.

it wouldn't be hard to play a pattern two ways and make it hard to tell which one includes the open string and which doesn't.
But as I said, I tend to choose that open string because I WANT that ringier, probably growlier, choice.

[maxim]

all right, all right

not ALL the tone comes from the left hand...

[Bill_Urick]

Anyone ever use a felt pick?

[maxim]

i've used one on a mandolin

i like...

[Emil "Gus" Gawaziuk]

Nope on bass, once on a guitar.  Nifty sound.  Pick of choice is either orange tortex or green tortex (don't know the thickness, I just go by colors) when necessary, otherwise usually fingers, and usually at the bridge on a PJ pickup equipped bass, or a Jazz bass.   Have a pretty heavy right hand, often I find playing closer to the neck I am beating the strings into the pickups far too often.