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[karambos]

A singer says she has a very loud voice & thinks this will cause problems when she comes to record in my studio.

I have a Nuemann TLM 103, an AKG Solidtube, a Sennheiser 421, a Shure SM57 and a kick drum/Tuba/bass mic

Does anyone reading this think it really could be a problem?

[bloodstone]

I don't think it will be a problem.  Just tell her to "Step away from the microphone".  And maybe you'll have to pad the mic, or use one of your less sensitive mics. You can always turn the input gain way down on your mic pre, too.  The best thing to do is probably re-assure her that is won't be a big deal so she isn't freaking when you're tracking. I don't see how a 421 or a 57 couldn't handle an extremely loud voice.  Even the Solidtube isn't the hottest thing in the world.  Good luck.

[Fletcher]

The 103 will probably need an output pad or very little gain and the 421 will be able to handle it without a problem.  I've recorded shotgun blasts with a 421 without a struggle.

Best of luck with the session.

[carne_de_res]

Fletcher wrote on Fri, 04 June 2004 17:06

The 103 I've recorded shotgun blasts with a 421 without a struggle. .

i'm with Fletcher on this one.just take care not to point the
mic on axis to the barrel.hehe.

[djui5]

Fletcher wrote on Fri, 04 June 2004 09:06

I've recorded shotgun blasts with a 421 without a struggle. Best of luck with the session.

Who was the artist you were so angry with?

[asterox]

out of curiosity, what techniques did your theatrical friend have to adopt?

[Kevinc]

personally I cant see how a vocalist singing too loud could ever be a problem. The more you project the better in most cases. It`s only a problem if they`re loud in some spots and really quiet in others.

It`s not like your going to overload a mic with a loud singer if you mic them properly.

Guitar amps and drum sets tend to be recored at way higher levels than a voice can get at peak volume.

[buddhaman]

I can speak to this....I have one of the loudest voices in the recorded history of the world...

You know how sound men want loud guitarists to turn their amps down onstage?? that's the kind of problem I present to Microphones.

A couple of things to remember...Gain staging is the most important aspect of recording bellowers. Some mics will not be able to deal (very sensitive condensers) ... an input pad is your friend.

regarding loudness and vocal tone...I think some mics break up and get uneven freq response at high volumes....and some do not.

I have had great luck with both the Shure SM-7 and the Soundelux U99.

Good luck to you
Buddhaman

[brandondrury]

Quote:

Actually . . . it's about the tone. A singer gets more midrangey and piercing as he/she gets louder. The midrange frequencies get louder, while the bass and treble don't. I've been working with a singer who comes from a theatrical background, where you really have to project. It was a bitch to get his voice to sit well in a rock mix, and he finally figured out that he needed to change his technique. When it's really loud, you have to reduce the gain excessively to match it with the mix, and your ear can tell that something unnatural is going on.

I'm having this exact same problem with a I'm doing for a Alice In Chains clone band.  They nearly whisper during versus and destroy the choruses.  Actually, I'm thinking that I should have had him back off on the choruses.  I ended up splitting up the vocal to give me a verse track and a chorus track because I needed different eq for each.

Brandon

[Zoesch]

Like all the New Wave Of Death Metal vocalists who try to sing the verses and scream out the chorus (Screamo singers come close but they tend to scream from start to finish)...

The gated distant mix technique popularized by Richards and Visconti in Bowies' Heroes comes to help... let them sing on your average condenser and scream distantly into another... hope you have a good room and a good set of gates.

[Fletcher]

djui5 wrote on Fri, 04 June 2004 18:42

Fletcher wrote on Fri, 04 June 2004 09:06 I've recorded shotgun blasts with a 421 without a struggle. Who was the artist you were so angry with?

It was an "industrial" record... we used a shotgun blast for the kik and a shot from a .45 for the snare, then tuned them to the right note using an AMS DMX-1580... it's what the artist wanted, it's what the artist got... personally, I thought it was pretty dopey but they weren't paying me to think so I kept my mouth shut and recorded the shit they wanted recorded.

[Zoesch]

Fletcher wrote on Mon, 07 June 2004 21:26

It was an "industrial" record... we used a shotgun blast for the kik and a shot from a .45 for the snare, then tuned them to the right note using an AMS DMX-1580... it's what the artist wanted, it's what the artist got... personally, I thought it was pretty dopey but they weren't paying me to think so I kept my mouth shut and recorded the shit they wanted recorded.

Done similar (And some worse) things during my Industrial years, not that there's anything wrong with that, those were the days I was pushing my skills to the max, I've had people jack-hammering pieces of metal and both a 421 and a more distant KM84... the combo also works well for circular saws and other "found" instrumentation.

[Tomas Danko]

Say, how many rounds did you require to reload in order to make it to the first chorus? Were they on click track or just like, you know, shooting from, say, the hip?

[Eric Rudd]

Kevinc wrote on Sun, 06 June 2004 19:12

personally I cant see how a vocalist singing too loud could ever be a problem. The more you project the better in most cases. It`s only a problem if they`re loud in some spots and really quiet in others. It`s not like your going to overload a mic with a loud singer if you mic them properly. Guitar amps and drum sets tend to be recored at way higher levels than a voice can get at peak volume.

Sure it can be a problem. I really loud singer in a small room, like an iso booth, can sound like crap. It'll sound like, well, a loud singer in a little room.

No one has mentioned the sound of the space in which you will be recording. Louder singers will drive the room harder, which will affect your sound. Something to be aware of.

Eric Rudd

[Eric Rudd]

More thoughts on recording singers...

For me, recording vocals is the most-difficult, labor-intensive recording I do. It's hard work, most of the time.

As someone mentioned in this thread, drums and guitars can get louder...but they're a helluva lot easier to record because their dynamic range is not that wide.

Think about the wide dynamics of a singer...we have to record their breaths between phrases, and yet contain a full bore chorus. The human voice is a much more powerful instrument dynamically than drums or a Marshall amp.

Generally, I try to get the amount of gain and compression I want for the loudest segment of the song, then ride the gain up (either on the pre or the output of the compressor, depending on the sound I want) during the softer portions.

Don't be fooled, recording vocals properly is hard work.

Eric Rudd

[brandondrury]

I think the issues that I've dealt with occur because many factors change as the level changes.  Generally, just whispering into a condensor sounds fine.  An all out scream will get the room into the mic more profoundly.  An even bigger problem is that some voices change in character in extreme amounts as they begin to wail.  I noticed this recently as a rock singer's voice sounded nice and full during the verses.  When he got the choruses, it was night and day.  Of course it was about 400 dB louder so it sounded bigger.  However, in mixing, when I rode the volume to even it out quite a bit, the choruses ended up sounding weak and very thin.  All the low end from his voice was gone.  I mean everything under 1000 Hz was gone...damn near.  It sounded more like a telephone than a AKG 414.  

I'm not sure if should tell a singer to back off a little bit (which may or many not kill the energy of the tune) or simply adapt my technique around his.  

As was posted previously, a distant mic with a gate could work.  Of course, this doesn't solve the thin problem which comes from the source (his vocal chords).  Generally, a scream should sound thin and seldom sounds "full" by nature.  However, this dude was still singing.

Hell, I don't know what I'm talking about.  The bottom line is the choruses sounded like a telephone and the versus sounded fine.  What the hell is the solution?

Brandon

[meenie]

I have definitely encountered this problem on the last project I was on.....

The singer we were working with had the most INSANE dynamic range of just about Anyone I've ever worked with....the lod passages were  unbelievably LOUD!! I never realised from listening to his other records just how loud he actually did sing. We were tracking the vocals with an ELAM 251 into an EMI console and using an old UA 176 (tube) limiter to control it somewhat, but in the end we had to back him off quite a bit- maybe 12"-15" or so (!!) but thankfully with the 251 it still sounded like he was right in your ear!  

Just my cent and a half.

[holm]

brandondrury wrote on Wed, 09 June 2004 18:36

All the low end from his voice was gone.  I mean everything under 1000 Hz was gone...damn near.  It sounded more like a telephone than a AKG 414.   I'm not sure if should tell a singer to back off a little bit (which may or many not kill the energy of the tune) or simply adapt my technique around his.

The thing is, if you are recording in cardioid mode with the mic, the more away you step from it the more low end you'll lose and the more nasal it will sound. I used to do the "step away from the microphone" thing myself but it seemed to make things worse. You could do it with more success in a completely dead room and the mic in omni mode, but again, many people don't like to sing in dead rooms and many engineers tend not to like how vocals sound in dead room. But this is a thing that you could maybe experiment with... Also in my opinion most mics sound nicer and less nasal in omni mode overall. And you can go really on to the mic that way...

[meenie]

Yeah but the "nasal" thing is soo dependent on the mic and the room- like I said before this particular 251 we were using (it was modded as well) sounded fantastic with the singer backed off..

And the room we were in was pretty damn live and BIG. The vocal sat in the track and had so much depth and presence to it. Lets not count out the singer himself(or herself) and the technique of said singer. more than 80% of the battle IMHO.