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Author Topic: Poor Man's ELA M...?  (Read 32374 times)

maccool

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Poor Man's ELA M...?
« on: October 20, 2006, 09:31:43 AM »

Anybody tried this ?  Anyone care to comment?  A CK4 recently went on eBay for $1300.  A C60 is what? About $1000?
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tuchel

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Re: Poor Man's Elam....
« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2006, 11:27:53 AM »

As far as the housing, a more pragmatic way to go is to buy a lollipop from BLUE.  They may even sell you one without a capsule. I think you'll save a few bucks that way.  You'll need those bucks because locating a brass "1st generation" CK12 will be difficult and costly.  There are threads covering this - do a search "Telefunken USA" on this site.
Overall, I think the capsule is the thing. The AC701 will have it's effect, but getting a great CK12 is most of it.
For around $450, you get BLUE's rendition of the capsule and I think it's a cool mic.  They're remarkable on acoustic guitar.

If there's interest I'll do a recording of my favorite C12 and my C28 with the lollipop for comparison.  As far as the E LAM, you have to make the intellectual leap between the 6072 and the AC701.

Terry
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maccool

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Re: Poor Man's Elam....
« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2006, 11:58:07 AM »

The bugger of all this is that I just want a CK4!  I remembered something about them from years ago when I wasn't the least bit interested in recording, and now, having a C451EB/CK1, and needing another fig.8 mic, I thought "Ah ha! Get a CK4!" That's when I discovered that they're as rare as rocking-horse shit, and in my searching I came across the Poor Man's Elam thing.  I can't spend a whole lot of dosh on vintage mic's, but a C60 I could probably manage, and I suspect the CK28A capsule would work well with my primary interest which is acoustic guitar.  There is available an adapter for CMS/C60 type mic's which would enable their use with Neumann and Blue capsules.  Given the scarcity of CK4's I might just go this route.

"For around $450, you get BLUE's rendition of the capsule and I think it's a cool mic. They're remarkable on acoustic guitar."  Which capsule, the B6?  Since I'm still looking for a fig.8 to put on the guitar, how about the B2 (on a C60)?
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tuchel

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Re: Poor Man's Elam....
« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2006, 03:41:33 PM »

Frankly, I don't know what's in a CK4, I assumed it was a Teflon CK12 (the new ones) or maybe a CK1 - that's a good place to start getting information straight. The lollipop gets you cardioid only, no figure eight.  With the C28, C60, 451's system, the capsule provides the pattern.
The B6 is the CK12 copy, I'm pretty sure, mine is older and isn't marked.  I have the B7 as well, and that's a cool capsule. While your at it, you better find an A51 knuckle sometimes these don't fit as well as you'd like and the knuckle always seems to make it work. I've never heard the B2.
I have 2 C28's with lolli's and a well traveled semi-famous LA veteran guitar player thinks these record him the best ever. I think they really sound good.  

Here's what I can guarantee you.  The CK4 with the original capsule inside on a C60 with never be mistaken for a E Lam 251 by anyone with ears.  You probably won't fool a Pro with a B6.  You might have a chance with a lolli with a good CK12 brass inside on a C60 - that's something I'd like to hear. Keep in mind the C60's goal is miniaturization, that might cause a breach of quality in a clone.

Good luck

Terry
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maccool

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Re: Poor Man's Elam....
« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2006, 04:25:41 PM »

tuchel wrote on Fri, 20 October 2006 20:41

Frankly, I don't know what's in a CK4, I assumed it was a Teflon CK12 (the new ones) or maybe a CK1

It's a nylon CK12.  Thanks for the input Terry.
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"Live sound will always be different."  Paul Frindle

dofo

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Poor Man's Ela M250
« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2008, 02:49:02 AM »

I would love to get some opinions from some folks, especially Klaus, on this article. (How to turn an AKG C60 into a quasi-ELA M)

 http://www.saturn-sound.com/Curio's/poor%20man's%20ela%20m25 0.htm

What do you think of that idea?

Aaron Zeller
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Aaron Zeller

dofo

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Re: Poor Man's Elam....
« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2008, 03:05:43 AM »

maccool wrote on Fri, 20 October 2006 21:25

tuchel wrote on Fri, 20 October 2006 20:41

Frankly, I don't know what's in a CK4, I assumed it was a Teflon CK12 (the new ones) or maybe a CK1

It's a nylon CK12.  Thanks for the input Terry.



I think it varies?  I thought the older ones came with brass CK12's?  Could have sworn so.  Anyone?
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Aaron Zeller

Frankenheimer

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Re: Poor Man's Elam....
« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2008, 10:19:49 AM »

Hi,
i investigated that there were only 1000 built. Same Cap like in the 414EB (non brass version). I think it sounds very similar to the EB. So my cap has serial 36. I cross checked that from a friend of mine who asked his friend which worked in the AKG plant.
So it was a teflon membrane.
Mine:
index.php/fa/9456/0/
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Franz Skale
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DAHAM RECORDINGS and codings

Barry Hufker

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Re: Poor Man's Ela M250
« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2008, 10:57:49 AM »

I think we've been down this road already.  You might do a search if you haven't.
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Jim Williams

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Re: Poor Man's Elam....
« Reply #9 on: July 11, 2008, 11:12:12 AM »

There are only a few CK-4's in the US. Rick Luxenberg has one. We put it on the C-60 body, it was OK, not special since the C-60 is nuvistor, noisy and dark sounding. The standard trick with the CK-4 is to pull off the pin connecting to the rear capsule, that turns it into cardioid. It also has a cap and some resistors in the base of the capsule. It is a standard ULS nylon capsule, they are not made with teflon. (They never were).

It won't polarize on a 460 or 480 body as those use 10 gig ohm bias resistors and the surface area is too large to polarize to 62 volts. However, the 40 volt Blue capsule does work well on the 460 body.

I used to display the C-60 with the CK4 on it at AES, it always got folks to stop and ask, What's THAT? When we first paired up the C-60 with the CK-4 we thought we had created the poor man's C-12. What we really created was a poor man's "The Tube". A CK12 capsule is not worth $1300, just get a 414.
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Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

MagnetoSound

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Re: Poor Man's Elam....
« Reply #10 on: July 11, 2008, 12:22:37 PM »

Correction: the C60 is NOT Nuvistor driven, it uses the AC701.

The C61 that followed is the Nuvistor version.

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Music can make me get right up out of my chair and start dancing or it can get me so pumped up I have to walk around the block.
It can also knock me back and make me sit there and cry like a little baby. This shit is as powerful as any drug!!!
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dofo

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Re: Poor Man's Ela M250
« Reply #11 on: July 11, 2008, 02:08:04 PM »

Quote:

I think we've been down this road already. You might do a search if you haven't.

Yeah, did that after the post.  Got a bit of round about info on it.
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Aaron Zeller

Klaus Heyne

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Re: Poor Man's Ela M250
« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2008, 02:52:10 PM »

The 'poor man's' ELA Ms remains to be not that C60 mod mentioned in the article (wrong transformer, no acoustic similarities, no space for a 6072 tube, etc.) but a C12 modified to ELA M specs.

It will be hard to tell the difference between these two mics, as the only slight deviation from ELA M performance wil be a slightly differently shaped head basket.  

...And all this at less than half the price of an ELA M!
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Klaus Heyne
German Masterworks
www.GermanMasterworks.com

dofo

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Re: Poor Man's Ela M250
« Reply #13 on: July 11, 2008, 03:21:35 PM »

Anyone have experience hearing the Ela M251/250 broadcast version (AC701K tube) and the "studio" version (6072 tube)?  Any comments on differences in sound?
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Aaron Zeller

Klaus Heyne

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Re: Poor Man's Ela M250
« Reply #14 on: July 11, 2008, 05:18:27 PM »

Differences are minute to non-existing, due to the fact that in both cases the biasing is cathode, unlike the slight audible differences between M269 and U67, due to different tube biasing methods.
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Klaus Heyne
German Masterworks
www.GermanMasterworks.com
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