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[loudsongsinc]

J-Texas wrote on Sat, 12 July 2008 17:53

Please don't expect that THAT was getting defensive or our little internet relationship will never work and I'll have to walk out on you and you'll be PM'img me for months.

J, are you seeing another engineer?  You just don't seem to open up to me anymore.  Like, you know, we don't connect. . .






Scott

[Patrik T]

J-Texas wrote on Sun, 13 July 2008 00:35

You need a beating! : )

Oh yes I do! And if you gave me one hour more things would kick serious effin butt!

Seriously, I grabbed the RAR in the last minut and gave it a go on my HP laptop...

WHAT
EVER

I'd like to propose the biggest toasts of all in mankind for Mr Hall that make things like these happen.

Patrik

[J-Texas]

loudsongsinc wrote on Sat, 12 July 2008 20:20

J-Texas wrote on Sat, 12 July 2008 17:53 Please don't expect that THAT was getting defensive or our little internet relationship will never work and I'll have to walk out on you and you'll be PM'img me for months. J, are you seeing another engineer?  You just don't seem to open up to me anymore.  Like, you know, we don't connect. . . Scott

[Chris Ilett]

Genre violation IS small minded!

About J Texas and the vocals all being a bit 'behind'. It was pretty obviously a mistake, but actually worked in parts. You should probably realise it, and listen with an open mind to see if it triggers any ideas.

So, what IS a mastering engineers job...?

[MoreSpaceEcho]

i thought "genre violation" was a pretty reasonable criticism, actually.

the mastering engineer's job on some of these submissions would be to turn them DOWN.  

[j.hall]

Patrik T wrote on Sat, 12 July 2008 20:24

I'd like to propose the biggest toasts of all in mankind for Mr Hall that make things like these happen. Patrik

THANKS.

i'm happy to deal with this as i firmly believe in it's ability to educate through real life simulation.

sorry i didn't submit this time, i just had NO TIME!

i'm going to try and get some reviews done though.

[j.hall]

J-Texas wrote on Sat, 12 July 2008 10:41

THIS IS FROM MAXIM IN THE WHATEVER WORKS FORUM. Why couldn't I have just said this: "the way i see it is that my job is to make it sound good in my room the ME's job is to make it sound good everywhere else... "

that's a really flawed point of view.

my room, being REALLY good sounding, is anything but perfect.

my goal is for it to sound killer where ever the band is listening to the refs and making their recall notes.

i believe firmly that my job as a mixer is to deliver a product that sounds nearly identical every where else as it does inside my room.

i think most successful mixers would agree with that.

i HIGHLY doubt CLA just brushes it off by saying, "well, it sounds good in here........"

if that were true, he wouldn't be the king of modern radio rock and be demanding the rates he does.

[j.hall]

jdier wrote on Fri, 11 July 2008 13:48

Anyone know if J is going to post a mix?

not this time.  SORRY!!!!

if i get to it in the coming weeks, i'll email you a link to it.  it's not fair for me to sneak one in past the deadline if i don't let anyone else do that.

[Devin Knutson]

J-Texas:
There seems to be a massive buildup in the 150-300 range.  Not sure if this was a decision or a monitoring issue.  It's not exactly "muddy" but it is unnatural sounding.

The bass is out of tune.  Because of the overall band-limited sound, it almost sounds like an acoustic bass through an amp.  It's actually kind of nice that way as a sound, but it doesn't really work for me overall.

The vocal is nice and present, but perhaps a tad low.  It's tough for me to tell against all that low-mid.

I like the guitars quite a bit.  They're nice and crunchy without being overbearing.

The do-yas'a seem to be balanced well, but they are super dry and seem to be sticking out a bit as a result.  I'd like them a bit more tucked in, and part of the groove.

The vocal seems to be getting really buried now in the third verse after the lead guitar comes in.

After the second chorus, there doesn't seem to be anything going on in the left channel any more.  It loses balance for me a bit.

Ha!  I REALLY like the tiny break turnaround in the final do-ya's!  That just never occurred to me.  It works really well.  Nice.

Nice smooth fade that kicks off just before the phrase turnaround.

Overall Impressions:
Other than the odd frequency build up in the low mids, I think things are mostly level balanced fairly well.  There are a few things that stick out a bit here and there, but nothing huge.  The bass tuning just plain bugs the crap outta me, I'm afraid.


Regarding the delayed vocal...  There are places where it works - where it could be deliberate.  These moments are really nice, and offer a refreshing take on the song.  They are however, far more rare than I think you may realize.  For the most part, there just isn't any rhythmic relationship whatsoever between the vocal and the track.

I do tons of theater, and every so often (typically during a "review" type show), I'll run into has-been, also-ran singers who perpetually sing w_a_a_y behind the beat like this.  They are generally older, and when pressed on the issue will screw their noses into the air and declare petulantly they are being "artistic".  They're not.  They just suck.  I hate them.  'Nuff said.

[J-Texas]

I didn’t want to seem like I wasn’t giving you a fair shake. This is as honest and objective as I can be.

DAVID BALLENGER – 2nd LISTEN – A lot of bass guitar. Lines 2, 3, and 4… I see where you are going. The pre-chorus is very ahead of the beat. It is non-musical to me. Same with the lead guitar licks. They are extremely behind the beat. With the vocal being that ahead of everything, the lagging guitar licks make it sound like a train wreck. The balance of the BGV (Do Yahs) is off. Now the guitars at the end are ahead of the beat. The EQ sounds pretty nice on things. Did you start all of these tracks at the head and line them up. There is a lot of weird panning stuff in there too (like at the end). Artistic? OK. But it’s distracting. Guitars, in the middle of measure are going from center to left, left to center. I don’t know if that’s appropriate man.

[J-Texas]

Devin Knutson wrote on Sun, 13 July 2008 15:01

J-Texas: There seems to be a massive buildup in the 150-300 range.  Not sure if this was a decision or a monitoring issue.  It's not exactly "muddy" but it is unnatural sounding. The bass is out of tune.  Because of the overall band-limited sound, it almost sounds like an acoustic bass through an amp.  It's actually kind of nice that way as a sound, but it doesn't really work for me overall. The vocal is nice and present, but perhaps a tad low.  It's tough for me to tell against all that low-mid. I like the guitars quite a bit.  They're nice and crunchy without being overbearing. The do-yas'a seem to be balanced well, but they are super dry and seem to be sticking out a bit as a result.  I'd like them a bit more tucked in, and part of the groove. The vocal seems to be getting really buried now in the third verse after the lead guitar comes in. After the second chorus, there doesn't seem to be anything going on in the left channel any more.  It loses balance for me a bit. Ha!  I REALLY like the tiny break turnaround in the final do-ya's!  That just never occurred to me.  It works really well.  Nice. Nice smooth fade that kicks off just before the phrase turnaround. Overall Impressions: Other than the odd frequency build up in the low mids, I think things are mostly level balanced fairly well.  There are a few things that stick out a bit here and there, but nothing huge.  The bass tuning just plain bugs the crap outta me, I'm afraid. Regarding the delayed vocal...  There are places where it works - where it could be deliberate.  These moments are really nice, and offer a refreshing take on the song.  They are however, far more rare than I think you may realize.  For the most part, there just isn't any rhythmic relationship whatsoever between the vocal and the track. I do tons of theater, and every so often (typically during a "review" type show), I'll run into has-been, also-ran singers who perpetually sing w_a_a_y behind the beat like this.  They are generally older, and when pressed on the issue will screw their noses into the air and declare petulantly they are being "artistic".  They're not.  They just suck.  I hate them.  'Nuff said.

Devin, I'm not sure if you're trying to be tactfully condescending or what. There has not been a single person, including one other engineer, that has said those vocals were so out of place that there had to be something wrong. Of course, they had never heard it placed anywhere else, either. For you to say that "there isn't any rhythmic relationship whatsoever between the vocal and the track" is insulting, not only to me... but to the other musicians that have enjoyed listening to the song. I am absolutely appalled that you would attempt to discredit my taste and my musicianship. Shifting a whole track to the right, exactly the same all the way through the song, while keeping it right on beat can hardly be compared to falling behind the pocket like a lazy lounge act. I guess I know, from the end of your post, how you feel about my rebuttal.

[J-Texas]

j.hall wrote on Sun, 13 July 2008 13:40

J-Texas wrote on Sat, 12 July 2008 10:41 THIS IS FROM MAXIM IN THE WHATEVER WORKS FORUM. Why couldn't I have just said this: "the way i see it is that my job is to make it sound good in my room the ME's job is to make it sound good everywhere else... " that's a really flawed point of view. my room, being REALLY good sounding, is anything but perfect. my goal is for it to sound killer where ever the band is listening to the refs and making their recall notes. i believe firmly that my job as a mixer is to deliver a product that sounds nearly identical every where else as it does inside my room. i think most successful mixers would agree with that. i HIGHLY doubt CLA just brushes it off by saying, "well, it sounds good in here........" if that were true, he wouldn't be the king of modern radio rock and be demanding the rates he does.

I think we're getting at the same thing here. The part of the POV that I just read into it: Being comfortable with your room and knowing how it translates. You know, from working in your place as much as you do, the things you need to do to make it sound good in other spaces. Wouldn't you say? I wouldn't think that (you said yourself that it isn't perfect) you would know the final touch freqs... right? I mean, it could sound good to you in most other places, but it couldn't hurt to be tweaked to sound as good as it's going to get in all places. Did I say any of this right?

[MoreSpaceEcho]

i think you're taking devin's criticism a little too personally man. it didn't read as condescending to me. the vocal *does* sound weird. if i got that track to master i would raise an eyebrow at that vocal.

the *idea* of it is cool, don't get me wrong. like i said before i can see where you were going with it, and some phrases do work great. but it's not totally in the pocket the whole time, and if it's gonna work with the timing shifted like that, it's gotta REALLY be there you know? i think if you had more time for the mix and could go through and really fine tune the timing of each phrase it could really work and be more interesting than the original, which admittedly is pretty straightforward (NTTAWWT). as it is, it's not there yet. that's all.

[MoreSpaceEcho]

deleted, sorry!

[Chris Ilett]

Afraid it's a violation bud.