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Author Topic: imp19 discussion  (Read 18284 times)

Antman

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Re: imp19 discussion
« Reply #105 on: July 15, 2008, 12:43:35 am »

Thanks everyone that commented on my mix, I've found it especially insightful and useful  Smile

Someone asked me about compression on the overheads: Yes and no, I sent them to a group channel with kick and bass, but at a lower level, and that channel had some very heavy compression settings. I found getting that snare sound was really a matter of getting the right relationship between attack and body between the two snare mics (Read; attack/release on the bottom mic).
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Antman

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Re: imp19 discussion
« Reply #106 on: July 15, 2008, 01:37:24 am »

Ator:

The split acoustic guitars at the start doesn't do it for me. I intepretted that as an intentional opening up of the mix from the beginning into the first chorus, which doesn't happen like this.

The guitar licks and lead parts are seated nicely. I love the snare sound, and it fits in the verse and chorus nicely. The vocal sounds good to me, tonally,  but for some reason I'm not feeling anything from it. Take this with a grain of salt, people said the same about my mix.

OOhhh lead part came in, feels good, well done.

Hmm, is there some compression on the "Do ya"s? There's some sort of uncomfortable attacky sound that makes the individual voices kinda distracts me from the overall sound of the do ya's.

Ohh, nice ending, I liked that.

The kick drum was good, it didn't stand out immensely, but it's presence was there in the back of my mind moving things along.

Chris Ilett:


Acoustic sounds nice, it feels quiet, which is nice, but with foreboding. The bass slips in nicely, I would have brought the drums in with the vox. I'm longing for them now, especially as the guitar licks go past.

I'm not digging the reverb on the vocals. It sounds too hard, maybe if some of the reverb's highs were brought down.

The backing vox in the chorus is quite distracting, he's kinda fighting for the centre of my attention with the lead vocalist, which is something I did consider doing, because those backing vox sounded great to me, but it really needed to go more one way or the other.

Tremolo/phaser effect is weird.... I don't know if the sound should feel spacey, from what I can tell the song is about some guy that's still in love with a woman who's marrying another man? Just doesn't sit with me.

also, the last solo could be louder, I felt it was there to lift the last chorus into a excited, feel good climax, which requires it to be fighting against the (now well engrained in the listeners mind) chorus vocals.

Jason Thompson:

Acoustic is okay, quite loud, which gives it more of a top 40 character.

Snare sounds MUFFLED. The rhythmic quality of the snares sound (compression?) is nicely shaped, but to me the EQ just makes it feel unnatural. It also sounds like the snare drum is actually going to be chewing up a lot of your head room, since you seem to have turned up the entire snare sound to make up for it's lack of presence due to a lack of certain higher frequencies.

I like the fade at the end.



Carefulcollapse:


I like the panned acoustic, it gives it a nice hardness/realness and is something I haven't heard yet.

Relationship between the kick drum and snare is really nice in the verse. Unfortunately the crashes are a bit too loud, and as the verse leads into the chorus, the hi-hats start to feel too loud and uncomfortable, partly due to level, party due to EQ. I would have automated them if I wanted them that high in the verses to begin with.

The snare drum seems to lose it's snareyness in the chorus when the other instruments come in. Perhaps automating the bottom mic up a bit? But the other thing with the snare is, that it doesn't seem to carry the rhythm, after it's been played. If you've used compression or reverb on this, set the release/reverb times with the kick drum playing too, that way, you can set them to fit into the song rhythmically.

That guitar part on the right hand side during the second verse is too loud and keeps drawing my focus away from the vocals.



Hmm, the do ya's are again, weird and hitty on the Do's, I might've used some RMS compression to take the attack out of them. plus there seems to be some sort of weird reverb or something on them? ANd they might be too loud.


Wow, song ends abruptly.


stillwelll:

The guitar at the start seems to sound a bit lowfi, did you take out some lows?

The vox are incredibly overpowering, and the reverb doesn't suit the verse when it's that strong. I feel like I'm in a bathroom. Actually, the reverb feels uncomfortable throughout the entire song and the vocals too strong,

The snare seems like this tiny thing off in the background, and is completely dwarfed by the kick drum and vocals.

Did you use a sample on the kick drum? It sounds like it belongs on a metal album and feels really disconnected.

I like the way you faded that guitar part out though.

------------------------------------------------------------ ----


Okay that's all from me for today, I'll do some more later.
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grantis

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Re: imp19 discussion
« Reply #107 on: July 15, 2008, 03:28:08 am »

spoon wrote on Mon, 14 July 2008 16:00

grant richard wrote on Mon, 14 July 2008 15:18

spoon wrote on Mon, 14 July 2008 14:33

Thanks all who have put in a review....


The jury is in: everyone wants less bottom snare mic.

So, I re-listened to mine based on various comments...oh as an aside, I think some people are mixing up mixes and submitters.  I randomize the listening and listen blind but I can see how things can get cross-pollinated.

I say this as a couple of comments on mine and other's submissions are so off that I can believe it is a monitoring issue on the reviewer's end.  They must have mixed up submissions and submitters.

But, the snare.  Well I still like it the way it is.  I (like you all) had my choice of mics....I like the snare-filled snare.  The top mic was way too boxy for my liking.  I realize I am in the minority on this one, but I dont think I would changed that if I had a chance to revisit my mix (unless the talent requested such a change).

I go into most of my IMPs blind as to the pre-discussion.  I prefer it that way, unless the talent is on this forum and offers insight into the outcome of the final product.

So I am curious.  What about that snare (in my version) begs for a change...try to articulate this to me...is it a genre thing...you know stuff like that is what I would like to know.  Cause I really would keep it as is....you know, sounding like an actual snare drum (one type of snare drum, that is).

I realize this is all MOP (matter of opinion) but this is one MOP many of the reviewers agree on.

Cheers,
David


I hadn't listened to it yet, but after this, I felt I must.

For my taste, the bottom snare mic lacked impact, and I think the end result of your snare sound lacks impact.  It doesn't have much body either.  The reason I used more top mic is...I suppose...the 'boxiness' you wanted to avoid.  MOP indeed.

Hope that helps.


See I thought it did have enough impact (for me).  But I did like your snare sound.  You partially answered my comment on yours by your post above...now that I know it is not a sample, what FX did you apply the snare track?

Regards,
David



I did not apply any FX to the snare.  Here is how I treated it...

Top Mic:

EQ3 7-Band
-4.5 DB Boost at 159.7 Hz, Q 1.0
-3.1 DB Cut at 454.4 Hz, Q 1.0
-7.0 DB Boost at 3.75 kHz, Q 1.0

Massey CT4 Comp
-Slow Attack
-Fast Release
-3 DB Reduction

Bottom Mic:

EQ3 7-Band
-HPF 24 DB/Oct at 194.2 Hz
-LPF 6 DB/Oct at 5.04 kHz
-4.9 DB Boost at 3.13 kHz, Q 1.02

Dyn3 Comp
-Att: 118.2ms
-Rel: 41.0ms
-Ratio: 3:1
-6 DB Reduction


Now, a lot of my ambiance came from the overheads.  The EQ curve would take way too long to type out since it differed on both mics.  I will tell you I comp'd both overhead mics with a BF76 at 8DB reduction peak. Slow attack, Fast release. 4:1

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Grant Craig
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J-Texas

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Re: imp19 discussion
« Reply #108 on: July 15, 2008, 10:08:12 am »

Antman wrote on Tue, 15 July 2008 00:37


Jason Thompson:

Acoustic is okay, quite loud, which gives it more of a top 40 character.

Snare sounds MUFFLED. The rhythmic quality of the snares sound (compression?) is nicely shaped, but to me the EQ just makes it feel unnatural. It also sounds like the snare drum is actually going to be chewing up a lot of your head room, since you seem to have turned up the entire snare sound to make up for it's lack of presence due to a lack of certain higher frequencies.

I like the fade at the end.




Thank you for the crit Antman. No, it was all very dark. I need to get back in that room and try, try again. As far as it sounding unnatural... I don't know. The recorded drums sounded pretty good to me and that snare was killer. I took out a little bit of 300 "boing", added a few dB of snap around 2K and tad bit of sizzle with a wide Q around 7K. That's it. I'm not sure what you mean, I guess.

Everything pretty much sits where I intended as far as balnce (besides some bass and vocal tweaking). That snare "eating up the headroom" thing is a little trick I use called dynamics.  Rolling Eyes

Thanks again.

JT
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Jason Thompson
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Re: imp19 discussion
« Reply #109 on: July 15, 2008, 02:28:09 pm »

Just spent an hour on a revision with the reviews from you guys.

Apart from some taste things that some loved and others hated most of the crits made sense to me. These were the changes I made after reading the reviews:

- Fixed the acoustic, I had doubled the track with delay and pitchshift. I removed the pitchshift and decreased the send to a flanger.
- Toned down the drum compression, unmuffled the snare, increased attack to the kick and shortned the snare a bit with a transient designer.
- Tuned the bass, this made a big difference.
- Edited the timing of the Doyas and made most of them Oyas to get rid of the spitty Ds
- Turned down the guitar chuggs before the chorus.
- Split the leadvocal in two tracks and eqed both but still no cigar. I don't think me and the leadvocal, esp the loud parts, are gonna be friends. Maybe I should Melodyne it.

To my surprise everybody like the guitars. Normally I do all kinds of doubling, distorting, reamping and pitchshifting to try and get a big full sound. This time I decided to do almost nothing and expected to get my ass whooped for my guitarsound but that turned out way different.

Making distorted guitars sound good is one of the hardest things to do for me. They take up much of the frequency range and so you have to balance them with every other element in a mix. Making them big but not have them overpower the rest is a tedious job.

-----------------------------------

Once again I learned a lot from the IMP. There's nothing like having your mix scrutinized by fellow AEs and listening to different approaches of the same recording.

Thanx everybody Thumbs Up
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Pieter Vincenten - ATORmastering

J-Texas

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Re: imp19 discussion
« Reply #110 on: July 15, 2008, 03:44:54 pm »

Antman. Yes, I brightened up the snare. It sounds better.

I had fun pushing and pulling the vocal parts around too. Knowing, now, that it wasn't the artist's intention to have it that way I definitely hear how it could have worked, but was not appropriate. That being said, I still hear how it COULD have been right shifted.  Laughing
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Jason Thompson
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j.hall

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Re: imp19 discussion
« Reply #111 on: July 15, 2008, 03:46:51 pm »

i just listened to clips of all the submission.  man there is a really broad spectrum of mixes.

seems like every one took the same  general approach.

i actually took some time today to mix the tune.  i put the mp3 on the PSW server but won't post a link.  i'm already breaking the rules enough just buy uploading it.

though i do think my mix will help some of you, might be worthy of a listen, totally up to you.

i'll delete it if ya'll think it's not fair of me to do.
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J-Texas

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Re: imp19 discussion
« Reply #112 on: July 15, 2008, 03:53:01 pm »

Hell no, J. That's NOT fair.

Take down!






Just give me about five minutes or so, first.  Laughing
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Jason Thompson
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MoreSpaceEcho

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Re: imp19 discussion
« Reply #113 on: July 15, 2008, 04:04:29 pm »

i'd like to hear your mix, j.
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rankus

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Re: imp19 discussion
« Reply #114 on: July 15, 2008, 06:10:46 pm »



Nice job J!

Perhaps a tad too big on the bigs, but that would prolly get knocked down in mastering.

What I have noticed on this imp, and most of the other imps as well,  is that folks seem to be trying to make mixes that draw attention to the mix itself... big reverbs, impressive snare sounds etc.  I thought my mix was more in line with what this song should sound like... until I heard J's that is.   Keep it "clean" guys.

If you can hear the mix it is a bad mix IMO.

IMP 20: Hurry up!


 
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Rick Welin - Clark Drive Studios http://www.myspace.com/clarkdrivestudios

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Re: imp19 discussion
« Reply #115 on: July 15, 2008, 06:44:25 pm »

rankus wrote on Wed, 16 July 2008 00:10

What I have noticed on this imp, and most of the other imps as well,  is that folks seem to be trying to make mixes that draw attention to the mix itself... big reverbs, impressive snare sounds etc.  I thought my mix was more in line with what this song should sound like... until I heard J's that is.   Keep it "clean" guys.

If you can hear the mix it is a bad mix IMO.

IMP 20: Hurry up!  


I agree that a mix should enhance the song.

In the best case scenario you have a great song and a great mix but I know plenty examples of great mixes of mediocre songs and even great mixes of terrible songs. All cases where the mix outshines the song. Some of these become hits because the mix is so great.

I can really enjoy a great mix and not even like the song, like a beautiful painting of an ugly object.


Maybe we're saying the same thing because when I listen to a great mix I don't hear the actual mix but just glorious sound.
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Pieter Vincenten - ATORmastering

rankus

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Re: imp19 discussion
« Reply #116 on: July 15, 2008, 06:50:41 pm »



Well I'm thinking more like "great acting" as opposed to "over acting"

IMO There was no great acting on this imp  (including my own mix BTW) only over acting.



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Rick Welin - Clark Drive Studios http://www.myspace.com/clarkdrivestudios

Ive done stuff I'm not proud of.. and the stuff I am proud of is disgusting ~ Moe Sizlack

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NelsonL

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Re: imp19 discussion
« Reply #117 on: July 15, 2008, 07:04:14 pm »

j.hall wrote on Tue, 15 July 2008 12:46

i just listened to clips of all the submission.  man there is a really broad spectrum of mixes.

seems like every one took the same  general approach.

i actually took some time today to mix the tune.  i put the mp3 on the PSW server but won't post a link.  i'm already breaking the rules enough just buy uploading it.

though i do think my mix will help some of you, might be worthy of a listen, totally up to you.

i'll delete it if ya'll think it's not fair of me to do.


Aw man, I'm bummed I didn't get mine up there.

I assume you (J dot) were too busy or didn't read that part of my email? I had my mix done early but was camping on the due date.

Anyway, I recuse myself lest an avalanche of exceptions burst forward.
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YZ

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Re: Post 2 of 4
« Reply #118 on: July 15, 2008, 11:33:46 pm »

osumosan wrote on Sat, 12 July 2008 10:45

 What do you mean by "bukkakke?" Do you mean sloppy and overdone?



I meant "in your face and exaggerated"; I felt drenched in it.
And both the original expression and my explanation above probably sound harsh, this is not the intention so here comes the 3rd attempt to characterize the bass sound:  too much low freqs and occupying a lot of space. Sorry if I offended you; I'll pay attention to being more civil in the next comments.

I apologize for not posting the comments for the remaining 14 mixes yet, I am quite pressed for time at the moment. I'll post them soon.

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regards,

YZ

YZ

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Re: imp19 discussion
« Reply #119 on: July 15, 2008, 11:39:15 pm »

loudsongsinc wrote on Sat, 12 July 2008 13:38



24) YZ - Bass a little round;  where’s the kick?;  too much snare bottom;  everything is a little too ambient;  Good BGVox EQ,verb and mix; like the arrangment;  the mix is closer to right than it sounds at first, little less verb, more kick and it is REAL good

Scott Bryant


Thanks for the kind comments.

I mixed on headphones, so that's probably why the kick is not quite right; most of the verb on the drums is from the original OHs and the treatment I gave the snare. I used just one reverb plug in this mix. Also, I did not use the snare top mic, only the bottom and OHs.


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regards,

YZ
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