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[mgod]

JDNelson wrote on Wed, 09 July 2008 11:05

Contrast the Middle East grudge-driven mindset with that of Vietnam.  The U.S. carpet bombed and napalmed them(!) But the Vietnamese communists have basically let bygones be bygones and now they are eager for business deals, etc.  A rather adult rational attitude IMO.   I mean the Japanese would have more to hate us for for A-bombing 'em.  But they've moved on, as rational adults do. The beef that Iranian militants have with the U.S. relates to basic skullduggery the CIA undertook to put their desired guy in charge decades ago.  Big friggin' whoop.  Get over it! What I'm thinking is, even with Obama as president, I doubt that the Iranian regime's attitude is going to change.

The Viet Nam-ese got over it quite a long time after we got out. The Iranians will too. If we ever get out, which we likely won't. And remember, unlike here, the power in Iran is not in the regime.

DS

[J-Texas]

I don't need to enlist. Not only am I too old, but there are tons of dedicated men and women who gladly risk their lives for me and YOU. And I appreciate that with all of my heart. Especially in comparison to some parts of the world... I feel safe because of their efforts.



Even Obama, who was so radical and so left before he got the nomination, has changed his tune about the war.

He used to say that he would excuse a battalion a month. Well, guess what? He says now that if he's elected he'll weigh his options carefully, blah, blah, blah.

Our presence over there is making a difference. Iraq is the most confident than it's ever been. They are proud that they have terrorists on the move and it's clear that their military is getting self-sufficient. If we moved out, it would be a matter of time before someone else took Saddam's place.


How would you feel if Iran DID close down the Strait of Hormuz and you couldn't get to work because you're paying $20 a gallon for gas? Iran is threating the world! Now let's throw in some ballistic missile testing and some uranium and YES... we've got a big problem.

I would like to think we could just sit down and talk and everybody just calm down and let's iron out our differences and peace and love and let's cut some records and everything will work out... that's not life. That's not the world we live in. There are crazy fucking people around every corner. You can't TALK to crazy fucking people man. There's no rationalizing with irrational people.

[rankus]

Maybe Iran is simply trying to keep us on our heels... "Lets threaten the oil supply... the oil companies will panic, the prices will go up and that will be bad for the western economy.."

Mission already accomplished

[mgod]

J-Texas wrote on Wed, 09 July 2008 11:29

There are crazy fucking people around every corner. You can't TALK to crazy fucking people man. There's no rationalizing with irrational people.

Its true!

DS

[JDNelson]

Just to be clear, I'm not advocating anything rash!  I think (hope?) that Western leaders of all stripes realize the delicacy of the situation.  

[J-Texas]

mgod wrote on Wed, 09 July 2008 13:50

J-Texas wrote on Wed, 09 July 2008 11:29 There are crazy fucking people around every corner. You can't TALK to crazy fucking people man. There's no rationalizing with irrational people. Its true! DS

What are you saying?  

[YZ]

J-Texas wrote on Wed, 09 July 2008 15:29

How would you feel if Iran DID close down the Strait of Hormuz and you couldn't get to work because you're paying $20 a gallon for gas?

One more reason to:

1- drive smaller, more efficient cars;
2- use renewable fuel sources that do not depend on oil.

If the average U.S. citizen wants to maintain his 'way of life', he'll have to change it a bit to make it sustainable and less subject to the whims of lunatics.

[mgod]

Just to put a little perspective on the situation, these are people over there: men, women, children, lovers, bakers, musicians, etc. My wife has some students from there who's parents spend half the year here and half the year there. These are the people were getting all hopped up to kill. KILL.

Just so we have a little awareness from the comfort of our non-combatant armchairs. As with any war, if you think it should be fought you should be doing the fighting. You should have to kill someone yourself if you think its justified, and live with the damage it does to your mind and body.

DS

[Jay Kadis]

When I was in college in the early '70s many of my fellow students were Iranian.  They were as intellectually inclined as any of us.  There are thousands of these former students living in Iran.  Iran suffers from the same idiotic leadership as we do.  The people are much like us in every aspect.  Attacking Iran is something only a Bush would consider.  We are ALL responsible for allowing idiots to call the shots.

[YZ]

mgod wrote on Wed, 09 July 2008 16:00

Just to put a little perspective on the situation, these are people over there: men, women, children, lovers, bakers, musicians, etc. My wife has some students from there who's parents spend half the year here and half the year there. These are the people were getting all hopped up to kill. KILL. Just so we have a little awareness from the comfort of our non-combatant armchairs. As with any war, if you think it should be fought you should be doing the fighting. You should have to kill someone yourself if you think its justified, and live with the damage it does to your mind and body. DS

Yes, mgod.

And there will always be a state of 'near-war' for as long as certain regimes have enough power to constitute a threat.

Just like Reagan broke down the Soviet Union with a fantasy war program and efficient counter-espionage without shedding a drop of blood, there's a way to reduce the power of those belligerant states: cut their supply of money.

Reduce your consumption of oil-derived energy.

This will reduce the power of the Islamic dictators and of clowns like Chavez.

And just like the Star Wars fake program had its costs, the reduction in oil consumption will have its costs too, but IMHO the long-term benefits, which include more than world peace, will be long-lasting and far-reaching.

A little less comfort now with less HVAC, less opulent automobiles, more rational use of energy, a shift from disposable goods to durable ones and other small things that add up.

Needs effort? yes.  But again IMHO it ends up being less costly than a state of war, in all accounts.

[JDNelson]

BTW, anybody seen the T. Boone Pickens commercial?

[mgod]

Saw him interviewed. Pretty interesting.

DS

[Berolzheimer]

THen there's this:


http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008/07/07/080707fa_fact_ hersh


"Late last year, Congress agreed to a request from President Bush to fund a major escalation of covert operations against Iran, according to current and former military, intelligence, and congressional sources. These operations, for which the President sought up to four hundred million dollars, were described in a Presidential Finding signed by Bush, and are designed to destabilize the country’s religious leadership. ......"

[J-Texas]

There's a lot of talk here about what WE could do. How about what THEY could do? Like stopping the missile testing and chasing the nuclear dream.

Isn't that what this thread was about? Once again, just another anti-Bush, screw America, soapbox thread.

We can sign petitions, stand up and unite, and all that jazz, but we don't call the shots. And frankly, I'm glad that we don't, because we are all misguided products of spoon-fed info.

I'm just a squirrel trying to get a nut.

[JDNelson]

I remember reading an article in National Geographic magazine, about Iran. This would have been just before all hell broke loose there, right about '78 or '79.  The overall picture they painted was a country shaking off the past and quickly entering the 20th century, thanks to progressive leadership by the Pahlavi family.  Months later and all that was, as they say, history.

The thugs who took over (masquerading as "students") seized our embassy and abused our diplomats.  This was an act so barbaric it hadn't been done in hundreds of years. Hitler, Stalin, Tojo... none of them ever violated diplomatic immunity.  That's how "out there" the act of invading a sovereign embassy was.

There are eyewitnesses who place Ahmajinedad at the scene as one of the hostage-takers, although it hasn't been "officially" confirmed.

What we have today is all of the chickens coming home to roost.  And the choices for the West aren't very appealing, to be frank.  Like that old joke about wrestling with a pig.  You'll just get dirty and besides the pig enjoys it!

Had we applied a measured military support to keep the Shah in power, perhaps things would be different.  In retrospect, the Pehlavi family were positively enlightened leaders...