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[Jessica A. Engle]

J-Texas wrote on Thu, 10 July 2008 15:55

Jessica, It's not cool. I know. "Better off" that after this shit is over, one could live without the fear that he will be forced to lop off a friend's hand in public. The casualties of war. Unfortunate. Necessary? Whatever the conspiracy theory, conservative-bashing, anti-government, underlying arguments to this war... We are helping a country form a safe, democratic government where people can live with hope instead of fear. Not today. Someday. That's why it's so important for us to stay there and make sure it happens.

Jason,

I know you're heart is so very in the right place, and I am not being insincere about this.  You're a helper.  And I think a lot of us here would see ourselves as the same.  Why else would we all come to this forum to blahblah about audio every single day?   I don't think it is because any of us feel superior to anyone else.  We're not here to dictate law and order into the audio business of others.  It's so we can help each other, and get help in return.  And that is great and wonderful.

So wonderful, in fact, that we, as Americans, see a country far away in a tight spot. like Iraq. And we logically say to ourselves, "gosh, we sure could help them out".  And this might possibly be true.  

However good hearted and good natured Americans can be, there are a few who don't want to "help".  They want to control.  This is nothing new.  But if you think very carefully, you can see how this is problematic.  The few people, who want control and power, can very easily say "We're going off to help!"  Words are cheap, and politicians say lots of worthless words.  And us poor everyday people who say "I think we should help" climb on board, because we're helpers after all.  We like it.  

But what is going on now is not helping.  It could be that there isn't much help we can give them.  They need humanitarian help, not military help.  

You say yourself that the US is helping create a government in Iraq to give the people hope instead of fear.  But as we all know from watching the blunders of our elected officials..... "hope" does not come from a government.  False hope might.  And I think believing that what we are doing is somehow an innocent, untainted attempt to help is to give America false hope.  

I'm not a conspiracy theorist, nor am I a conservative basher, nor am I anti-government.  I want to see Iraq healed.  I want to see them have hope.  Just like you do.  But that is not what the military is doing in Iraq.  That is not what we are giving them.  As long as America is afraid (see the opening post of this thread) we cannot help others to emerge from their fear.  No matter how long we try, nor how desperately we want to believe we are helping.

Jessica

[bblackwood]

Thanks, Jessica - easily POTD  material. I don't necessarily agree the military isn't doing good over there right now (I don't really know, i have to rely on the news....), but I like the attitude you display here.

[J-Texas]

Although I appreciate your approach (as always), and do respect your POV... I still have to argue that a humanitarian effort won't solve the problem of terror and fear in Iraq. I don't think you could slip a daisy in the barrel of the gun of an extremist.

Jay... what gives us the right? Crimes against humanity. Like I said, the US is not perfect, but at least G-Dub wouldn't wipe out Craword, TX for stealing a horse!

[Jessica A. Engle]

J-Texas wrote on Thu, 10 July 2008 17:16

Although I appreciate your approach (as always), and do respect your POV... I still have to argue that a humanitarian effort won't solve the problem of terror and fear in Iraq. I don't think you could slip a daisy in the barrel of the gun of an extremist.

There is a problem of terror and fear here, in the "Homeland".  We owe a humanitarian effort to ourselves.  Humanitarian may mean "philanthropic" in some ways, but also means having to do with "humanity".  Where is our humanity, Jason?  If we lose that, what hope is there for anyone?

An "extremist" is a person.  Nothing more.  A person who's head is filled with ideas that came from someplace.  That's the "-ist" part, just like an "evangelist" or a "philanthropist", or a "communist" or a "facist" or a "racist".  But these are all still people.  And people are dynamic, capable of changing if they want to.  They can go from misunderstood and/or combative to something better.  Or, they can go from indifferent to something far worse.

Understanding these things could help the situation (notice I don't say "solve" it):

1) Iraqis are just as proud of being Iraqis as we are proud of being Americans.  This means that even if they do desperately need help, they might be too proud to say so.  Remember what happened immediately after Hurricane Katrina?  The world responded in amazing fashion with offers of aid: food, money, supplies, medicine.  But most of it was rejected, even tho' it could have been put to very good use in the face of a lot of government incompetence and unlucky happenstance.  Noone wanted to admit we couldn't handle the problems.

2) Their idea of help might not be our idea of help.  This doesn't make it wrong for us to want to help.  But consider for a moment that yes, Saddam was horrible and ruthless and violent and killed many thousands.  To an Iraqi, I can see how our presence in Iraq might seem just as oppressive, violent, and lethal.  It might seem better to us, because now we're in charge instead of Saddam; but to them it is likely we are about the same.

Maybe the best help would be to help the warring factions in Iraq to hate each other less.  And between this kind of "help" (the "humanity"-based approach if you will), and fighting fear and terror with a show of force I assure you the first choice is the much more difficult path.  They need to be reconciled to each other; that's the real problem in Iraq.  That is what threatens their hope and causes the terror among themselves.

How is the US military going to help them to do this, I ask you?   I sincerely hope there is a way.  But...

you cannot quiet fear and terror with a gun.  

Not in Iraq, not in America.  It doesn't work that way.  

Brad,

Who knows what to believe anymore?   People will pay $100 for a tank of gas, but truth seems to be worthless.  I am ashamed to say that it is causing me to lose heart.

Jessica

[i dig music]

i love how so many buy into this perpetual bullshit......

[Barry Hufker]

If you'd like a better idea as to what is really going on in Iraq or anywhere else for that matter, you've got to watch news from the BBC and other similar organizations.  Unfortunately, American news presents an extremely biased view.

When you do start watching the BBC, your draw will drop at realizing what the world thinks of us.

[J-Texas]

Jessica,

Sorry... but we DON'T possess the same type of fear that these people have. We could chat like this in a coffee shop over a latte and a scone, but under Saddam's rule, we would have secret police pulling out tongues out in public. It's not the same. I don't buy it! Sorry.



As far as Katrina. What I remember is Bush hovering around in his helicopter for three days and people begging for help and shouting from their rooftops with no food or water. A hideous site of an overflowing football stadium where people were getting beaten and raped. You don't think those people wanted help? You think they were too proud? Most of those people moved to Houston and Dallas. We were bringing in kids into school here in Plano! I just got back from NO and it looked like a ghost town in the Quarter.

[Berolzheimer]

You guys are WAY underestimating the number of dead resulting from the Iraq war.

It's not 80 thousand, it's over a MILLION.

http://www.justforeignpolicy.org/iraq/iraqdeaths.html

And American casualties, including injuries, possibly as many as 100,000.

http://www.antiwar.com/casualties/

NOW do you think the Iraqi people are better off?  The dead ones certainly aren't.

[Jay Kadis]

J-Texas wrote on Thu, 10 July 2008 15:16

Jay... what gives us the right? Crimes against humanity. Like I said, the US is not perfect, but at least G-Dub wouldn't wipe out Craword, TX for stealing a horse!

That certainly sets the bar pretty low!  There are many more "crimes against humanity" that reach the level of Saddam.  Are we assigned the duty of cleaning up all of them?  Bush had a family grudge against Hussein and that, not altruistic love of suffering humanity, is what propelled us into Iraq.  That and oil.

[weepit]

J-Texas wrote on Thu, 10 July 2008 17:16

Jay... what gives us the right? Crimes against humanity. Like I said, the US is not perfect, but at least G-Dub wouldn't wipe out Craword, TX for stealing a horse!

you honestly believe that we did this to help iraq gain democracy?  really?  

i am sorry but that is absurd.  there are plenty of countries around the globe with governments as bad or worse than iraq under saddam but we don't bother them at all.  they don't have oil.  

"Crimes against humanity."  hook, line and sinker...

[Jessica A. Engle]

J-Texas wrote on Thu, 10 July 2008 21:53

Jessica, Sorry... but we DON'T possess the same type of fear that these people have. We could chat like this in a coffee shop over a latte and a scone, but under Saddam's rule, we would have secret police pulling out tongues out in public. It's not the same. I don't buy it! Sorry. As far as Katrina. What I remember is Bush hovering around in his helicopter for three days and people begging for help and shouting from their rooftops with no food or water. A hideous site of an overflowing football stadium where people were getting beaten and raped. You don't think those people wanted help? You think they were too proud? Most of those people moved to Houston and Dallas. We were bringing in kids into school here in Plano! I just got back from NO and it looked like a ghost town in the Quarter.

I know it doesn't manifest itself the same way here as it does in Iraq.  You are correct about that.  

You misunderstand my reason for mentioning Katrina.  I never meant to say that the people in New Orleans weren't in need.  They were in great need.  But, those people were powerless to make choices to help themselves.  They weren't calling the shots when the aid was offered.  It was those in control who said "no".  

[Jessica A. Engle]

weepit wrote on Fri, 11 July 2008 09:41

J-Texas wrote on Thu, 10 July 2008 17:16 Jay... what gives us the right? Crimes against humanity. Like I said, the US is not perfect, but at least G-Dub wouldn't wipe out Craword, TX for stealing a horse! you honestly believe that we did this to help iraq gain democracy?  really?

I think that is what our leader(s) wanted us to believe.   I'll wager that is what a lot of Americans wanted.  And we really wanted so much to believe them that we said Okay.

Am I wrong in thinking this?  Is it really so unimaginable that the ones making the choices played us all like a fiddle?   Its not really a conspiracy, it's pretty much out in the open for all to see.  

We always say "we", but it's  a little self-abusive to claim that NO Americans want to see a safe, democratic Iraq.  That we're all somehow out to kill and torture Iraqis.  Not everyone in America has a say in what is going on here.

No, George W. is not like Saddam.  I'm trying to understand what Jason is getting at, here.  But just because our tempers run high is no reason to be condescending about his ideas.  Give a little respect.

The saddest part of all this is we're all pretty much in the dark.  Barry is right about the BBC... but even so I can't help but doubt any news that comes my way.  People seem to mold the news to support their own agendas, whatever that is.  

[J-Texas]

No. No. It was even a lie to go in on the premise of "weapons of mass destruction".

Of course it had a lot to do with oil. Why do you think Saddam was burning all the oil fields in '91?

I'm sure there were MANY reason for all of this. A lot of which none of us REALLY know. OK. That still doesn't change the fact that Saddam was (edit for tense), nor the Al Queda are doing ANYONE any good.

No war is good. Do you really think that during the Civil War, brothers wanted to shoot each other because they lived in different states? Sometimes some gruesome things are necessary for the greater good.

We can't just tell the terrorist to leave Iraq and never come back.  Oil, terrorist, vendettas, anger, freedom... we're there. Whatever the reason, WE ARE THERE. It would be horrible to leave these people in a shitstorm. It's not fair for left wing peace lovers to try and take the US out of there right now. EVEN Obama realizes that. He just wanted to get the nomination.

Like I said, damned if we do, damned if we don't. We would DEFINITELY be even more hated around the world if we got out of there. We would look weak to the terrorists and put everyone in more danger.

That's why McCain said we would stay there for a 100 years. If we have to... so be it! We started something (WHATEVER THE REASON) and it's only right to finish it. That is what is happening over there now. We are helping to set up the government and the military to succeed. Most importantly, economically.

[Jessica A. Engle]

Ahh, well done... I understand you much better now.

OK, first, I would suggest you realize that more people than just the "left wing" want American soldiers out of Iraq.  I consider myself very neutral, politically.  Even to the point of a general apathy.  But even an apathetic person can only see so much before you can no longer realize something went wrong.

And yes, something did go wrong.  The American Civil War was not right.  Yes, brothers were killing each other, but eventually someone came to a realization that "this is not how things are supposed to be".  We grew out of our differences and our hatred of each other and a lot of those wounds were healed with progress and the passage of time.  Noone made us do it, or could have made us do it.  We had to choose it for ourselves.  And it took a long time to fix the brokenness it caused.  

To tell you the truth, I think you're right about the disaster that would be left in Iraq if America made a complete withdrawl.  However, "WE ARE THERE" is more accurately described as "the American military" is there.  Do you admit that leaving soldiers in Iraq is the only way for the US to keep a presence there?   Or that this is the only way to "help"?  

We might not be more hated around the world if "we" got out of there.  If we must keep a presence in Iraq and continue to influence them, perhaps military strength is not the only way.(You said yourself, economics was the most important).  

Send economists, send business people, send doctors and teachers.  This is not hippy, peace-loving crap.  It is giving a chance to intelligence and planning.  It is hard work and takes just as much money and planning as a military occupation.  Give research a chance.  Maybe if we could identify what makes their economy go in the first place, we could bolster it and help it grow.  

Maybe "we" should be there for 100 years, or more.  I don't know.  But if that is the case, must the only bit of "us" present there be our military?  No, the terrorists won't go away just because we tell them to.  But they also won't go away by killing them.   So what is the next step?  

Maybe we don't need to get out of Iraq as importantly as we need a "next step".  America is an ingenuity engine.  I feel so strongly that whatever we choose to do, we can think of something "better" than our current behavior.  

[J-Texas]

Jess, I was stepping over the line with the hippie thing. I want to "give peace a chance" as much as the next guy sitting in a bag. I just don't think it's time for that YET.

There WILL be a time for the humanitarian process. It's wonderful to think of a safer time when corps volunteers could be there to help, along with doctors, economists, more.

Right now though... killing terrorists is the only way. The Iraqi military has the Al Queda "hiding in the hills" right now. Deadly force, IMO, is the only way because these people will stop at nothing. They will die for their beliefs in an instant.

The world needs to know that NOWHERE will be a safe haven for terrorists. The ones involved in this type of extreme behavior need to know that they will be found. We don't need to pay off an informant again and have him keep our money and let Bin Laden escape either. We need to carpet bomb his cave and be done with it.

I'm not saying the ones in Washington making "our" decisions aren't greedy fuckers. I'm saying that whatever the masquerade is, we have a moral obligation and a responsibility as a strong nation to help countries of the world to be free of tyranny.

We are not the only ones that deserve the pursuit of happiness.