R/E/P Community

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 37   Go Down

Author Topic: producers want publishing, not points these days  (Read 53164 times)

J.J. Blair

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 12809
producers want publishing, not points these days
« on: July 07, 2008, 06:06:08 PM »

I was talking last night to a friend who has been doing this for a long time, and has had a few hit records.  We were talking about the bleak situation, on how there's no back end anymore, and he told me that is why now when he produces a band, he doesn't ask for points, he asks for 25% publishing.  

Three or four years ago, I would never have considered this, and while I might not have the temerity to ask for a whole 25%, I think he's on to something here.  His point was that there's no actual sales these, so all the revenue is being made from public performance royalties.

This is especially true, if you consider that we are doing more indy, low budget bands than ever, and the only way to really make money with them is to pray they get a song on Scrubs or some TV show.

My next deal, I'm actually thinking of floating this idea.  I honestly think this will have to be the new model, if producers are ever going to see back end again.  

Any thoughts from the peanut gallery?  I'm particularly interested in hearing from the people who have actually collected royalty checks.
Logged
studio info

They say the heart of Rock & Roll is still beating, which is amazing if you consider all the blow it's done over the years.

"The Internet enables pompous blowhards to interact with other pompous blowhards in a big circle jerk of pomposity." - Bill Maher

"The negative aspects of this business, not only will continue to prevail, but will continue to accelerate in madness. Conditions aren't going to get better, because the economics of rock and roll are getting closer and closer to the economics of Big Business America." - Bill Graham

MDM,

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2305
Re: producers want publishing, not points these days
« Reply #1 on: July 07, 2008, 06:23:01 PM »

welcome to the world of low-bugdet productions..

this is standard for the dance-singles markets, where revenue from publishing may meet or exceed record-sales..

basically it means that the expectations for hardware record sales are low, but airplay, live show/disco/club play, international revenue may be worthwhile.

Logged
I must study politics and war that my sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy .. in order to give their children a right to study painting, poetry and music.
John Adams (1735-1826) 2nd President, United States

wwittman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7712
Re: producers want publishing, not points these days
« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2008, 06:36:02 PM »

it's inevitable that SOME other income stream will have to be tapped by producers, if recorded music is simply a "free promo device' for an artiste's 'other' career activities


otherwise, there's no way to continue to HAVE professional record producers

It's all well and good for jerk-offs, like Bob Lefsetz, to rant about how artiste's should just be giving it all away and "building a career", but there has to be some way that artistes continue to get the professional HELP that has always been a part of the very best recordings we ALL know, love, and site as examples of what to strive for.


I don't know anyone who seriously thinks that handmade, in-the-bedroom, no budget records are the answer to the industry's future OR for the future of music as art.



Logged
William Wittman
Producer/Engineer
(Cyndi Lauper, Joan Osborne, The Fixx, The Outfield, Hooters...)

RSettee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6796
Re: producers want publishing, not points these days
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2008, 06:38:42 PM »

My thoughts:

For the industry, this is great.

For artists, it sucks.

Again, the more and more that people ignore Bill and I's argument of the "pay per byte" entertainment thing online, the more and more cutthroat this will get for everyone, and the more that people--including people on this board--will have to resort to shake down tactics.

As an artist, rights to publishing is a shakedown tactic. I'll say this firmly and strongly right now. But from an engineer's point of view, sure, we all have to eat, too.

If you noticed in my other threads, I predicted that this would be the wave of the future for the industry's woes--shakedown tactics from publishing. No one listened.

Look at Paul McCartney....didn't Michael Jackson own more of his songs than Paul? Isn't that a sad state of affairs? Then you get Luvs commercials, and the art becomes a laughing stock. It isn't artists making the decisions anymore, it's a goddamned marketing board looking to use prominent music to sell anything but music.

When I went to the music store to buy music, they cleared out at LEAST half of their music. Now it's just the biggest artists, or artists that have sold. The stores have no more time or money for taking a chance on newer artists. But this is what I saw:

DVD's
hoodies
hats
shirts
baby "Iron Maiden" shirts

If you think music is a joke now with American Idol delusionists, imagine what a laughing stock it will be when everyone has to sell their publishing out. Music will become more and more of a jingle. Merchandising is selling more than the actual music, everything's becoming a "brand". More now than ever, music is something that you wear, rather than, say, sitting down and listening to the music, or going out to clubs. The club scene here has been a bloody morgue for a long time. That's because people don't give a shit about music, it's a name, a brand, something they wear or download but don't actually support.

COUNT on it.

Pay per byte, folks. Join up now in the fight against rampant ISP "oversights". Don't wait for the Titanic to sink, you can do something NOW. The lifeboats are still there. If we let the ISP's continue on with this, there will be no lifeboats left, because the Titanic will be underwater.

I guarantee it.

Edit: I think that there can be some good for artists to put songs in movies or create soundtrack work. I'm going after soundtrack work, myself, because tons of people have said that I should get into soundtracks, because that's what most of my released music sounds like, anyways. But to relinquish 25 percent? I dunno man. That's steep. I'm still the guy that has to find that "in" with the soundtrack work, at which point i'm the guy that recoups 100 percent, still.

Reading the writing on the wall, you know what will happen? Bands  will just record their stuff themselves, because they can't afford to. At some point, I think that there was that slim fraction of time, that window of opportunity, where the majors--if they had the foresight--would have aligned themselves with smaller home based studios or bands, to cut costs. That would have paid those smaller bands and engineers and acknowledged their time (some records have been done like this: Caribou's "Andorra", Loney Dear, Jason Falkner had stuff on his first album that was recorded at home and then mixed by bigger guys--and it sounds great). But it was the exception, not the rule.

Even at worst, they could have got bands to produce and record their own material, and then get a guy like Andy Wallace or Butch Vig to sort of produce it by mixing what they thought were the best elements in or out, or punching it up and spicing it up. You need a modern day equivalent of what Butch Vig was doing in Smart Studios in the late 80's--creating amazing sounding big budget albums on a small budget. It's no coincidence that Nirvana's "Nevermind" bears his name. When you take people that know what they're doing--for great AND for an affordable price, you can get albums like "Nevermind". Butch recorded other tracks of theirs before they were signed to Geffen, and those sound great, too. Nirvana never had tons of money to pay producers at that time, those producers helped push Nirvana into the stratosphere, because they did a great job AND it didn't cost an arm and a leg.

Who's the new Butch Vig?

Too late for that now--the majors kept on throwing big dollars and MORE money into the sinking large ship, rather than the smaller lifeboats. That means that the whole momentum is taking the entire lifeboat system. If you pull a parachute too late, that's it. You're done. If problems arise before that altitude, you'd best locate them and do something quick. They never created any reputable home studio "names" to be able to spin gold from straw. It can be done. I'm doing it. I've got worldwide acclaim for doing this my way, on my artistic and production merits. But the majors wouldn't have gave a shit how good I could get things to sound for much, much less than the big boys. I don't have the overhead that most people do, i've learned to get efficient on a budget. But at some point, someone convinced them that they did need all that excess, all that overspending, and now it's hurting them.

That is something that the majors never really saw as an asset. And the window has pretty much closed. If the majors came to me now and said, "hey, we like the productions you're putting out on your label and getting big budget sound for cheap". I'd tell 'em to get bent, because they have dollar signs in their eyes and there's nothing that they can do for me for promotion, other than to sell my fucking songs out, man.

BUT, then more artists like me will just create their own work, sell it, and keep 100 percent of the publishing, because they're out there having to bust their ass anyways, because the labels (even indie) are of no help. They can't take chances on bands. Bands will go either really, really big (Mutt Lange, etc) or go very small. There won't be any more middle class engineers or producers anymore.
Logged

compasspnt

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 16266
Re: producers want publishing, not points these days
« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2008, 07:10:46 PM »

If an Artiste pays a Producer with publishing, rather than points, and has as a result a better record, it will, on average, become more visible, have more radio play, and therefore more income in total.

Same thing as mechanical royalties, just another income stream...the one that actually has fish in it.

The worse the production, the fewer the fish.
Logged

RSettee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6796
Re: producers want publishing, not points these days
« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2008, 07:21:41 PM »

...with the artist's songs and lifeblood, Terry. Songs. Not the physical masters. It used to be that the company owned the masters. I now see more and more meddling managers and labels getting in the middle and then pushing songs not only into the stratosphere, but into oblivion, because they need to sell some Nikes or whatever. Courtney selling half of Nirvana's backcatalogue, Hendrix "Experience" Cola, Viva Viagra, etc.

My problem with this is that there's casualties of honest music that get ruined with this tactic. Remember the "Major Threat/ Nike" campaign? They entirely ripped off Minor Threat--a band that wanted NOTHING to do with corporate industry (Ian still tells the majors to get bent in Fugazi and with Dischord), WITHOUT Ian or Minor Threat's permission.

Someone, somewhere, probably thought that Ian gave into the machine and sold out. If Ian wasn't such an anti-corporate guy, he would have sued the bejeezus out of Nike for taking Minor Threat--and their reputation and DIY cred and staunch ideals--to sell a few more shoes.

  http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1504742/20050627/minor_thre at.jhtml

People forget that we've already been at an MTV and popular music saturation. People don't want to hear more, they want to hear less---because that means that songs they don't like aren't being beaten into their subconscious, and the songs that they DO like aren't getting killed. I can't tell you how many times I liked a song and then just ended up being blah about it due to how many times that I inadvertently heard it on the radio or PA's in malls, or whatever. The industry can't say, "well, people must not be buying because they're not HEARING the songs". No, it's because people think they're shit songs and don't want to hear 'em again and are repulsed with the way that the machine has handled music since, say, 1984.

Now, when the industry needs to be earning back MORE trust with people and artists, they do this? Please.

If I sound angry at the industry, it's because I AM.
Logged

rnicklaus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3859
Re: producers want publishing, not points these days
« Reply #6 on: July 07, 2008, 07:23:49 PM »

I have not witnessed this happen yet.

The producers have always had "the best" deal.  They get an advance against royalties, usually 1/2 recoupable and only have to recoup recording costs on record sales.

25% of publishing is what a publisher receives in a publishing advance deal.

If a producer can get 25% of an artists publishing for producing a record, more power to them I guess.

If I was advising the artist, I would say pass on that producer -
Logged
R.N.

danickstr

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3641
Re: producers want publishing, not points these days
« Reply #7 on: July 07, 2008, 07:25:43 PM »

Mel Brooks had it right, it's all about moychendizing.

This kind of a deal seems logical if the producer is wanting to produce a band, but thinks they will not sell/land big, and he is willing to play around with it, but still seems like a large amount to me, since the publishing house will want 51% to stoke a deal, so that talent gets 24.


Logged
Nick Dellos - MCPE  

Food for thought for the future:              http://http://www.kurzweilai.net/" target="_blank">http://www.kurzweilai.net/www.physorg.com

compasspnt

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 16266
Re: producers want publishing, not points these days
« Reply #8 on: July 07, 2008, 07:34:44 PM »

You can do a deal wherein any party gets X% of publishing revenues on any particular release, not necessarily forever on covers, etc.
Logged

jimmyjazz

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1885
Re: producers want publishing, not points these days
« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2008, 08:35:54 PM »

There is another option -- the artistes and/or their "record labels" could pay the producers and engineers up front and in full.
Logged

mgod

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4020
Re: producers want publishing, not points these days
« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2008, 08:51:05 PM »

Up front - I like that idea - as it is in theory I've always been paid that way but in reality its closer to a year later.

DS
Logged
"There IS no Coolometer." - Larry Janus

J.J. Blair

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 12809
Re: producers want publishing, not points these days
« Reply #11 on: July 07, 2008, 08:56:43 PM »

Engineers generally do get paid for their work.  It's production where it's the strange thing, where you're being paid in points, with maybe an advance, recoupable by points.  I mean, for me, the only difference in my fee between engineering and producing is the points.  I only get paid for the engineering, and that's not recoupable.  That's based on an hourly fee.

The problem with being paid up front is that you don't know how much work it's going to take.  Generally, I work on a pay as you go.  The record I'm currently doing, I asked for half up front, and as the second half completed, the rest.  I've also had a third up front, another third in the middle and a third upon completion.  Even if it's a label, and you make it clear that work doesn't start until you get a check, you can get a check.

Randy, who's doing 25% publishing deals?  The records publishing I bought, it was 50%, which was of course only 25% of the over all royalty.  Is this what you meant?  

BTW, Randy, what used to be a producer's advance is the total budget for a record now, if we are lucky.  My friend said the biggest record he did last year was $120k, and I was like, "Yeah, that used to be a small budget record."

BTW, if Madonna records your song, last I heard, you have to give her half your publishing, but you get to keep your writer's share.  But I'd gladly give that up, than have 100% of a song not recorded by Madonna.
Logged
studio info

They say the heart of Rock & Roll is still beating, which is amazing if you consider all the blow it's done over the years.

"The Internet enables pompous blowhards to interact with other pompous blowhards in a big circle jerk of pomposity." - Bill Maher

"The negative aspects of this business, not only will continue to prevail, but will continue to accelerate in madness. Conditions aren't going to get better, because the economics of rock and roll are getting closer and closer to the economics of Big Business America." - Bill Graham

seedyunderbelly.com

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2465
Re: producers want publishing, not points these days
« Reply #12 on: July 07, 2008, 09:01:02 PM »

I've seen Producers run themselveles bankrupt trying to give the best record..

I hope someone finds a way for it to work   as WW threw  how many classic records that are held as the""  SZomeone was hanging around? right?

Glad to know the Producers that I do.

j

wwittman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7712
Re: producers want publishing, not points these days
« Reply #13 on: July 07, 2008, 09:03:02 PM »

jimmyjazz wrote on Mon, 07 July 2008 20:35

There is another option -- the artistes and/or their "record labels" could pay the producers and engineers up front and in full.



okay.
so for example:

let's accept that there is no money in record/download sales

the recording being made is being made essentially as a free give-away to boost ticket, t-shirt, ashtray, etc. sales for the artiste


so why would a record company give the artiste money to make that (free) record unless THEY have a piece of all that other stuff?

and as a result, where is the money to come from to pay the proposed producer and studio and engineer "up front"

I can see where U-2 gets the money.
But where does the new cool band no one has heard of yet get it?


intrinisic in most people's proposed "future model" always seems to be the idea that an artiste's first few records are just about bound to be "homemade" unless said artiste has a trust fund.

This will work well for almost no one.



Logged
William Wittman
Producer/Engineer
(Cyndi Lauper, Joan Osborne, The Fixx, The Outfield, Hooters...)

rankus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5560
Re: producers want publishing, not points these days
« Reply #14 on: July 07, 2008, 09:05:22 PM »

Quote:

JJ said: BTW, if Madonna records your song, last I heard, you have to give her half your publishing, but you get to keep your writer's share. But I'd gladly give that up, than have 100% of a song not recorded by Madonna.


word

Tis better to have a slice of grapefruit than an entire grape.


Logged
Rick Welin - Clark Drive Studios http://www.myspace.com/clarkdrivestudios

Ive done stuff I'm not proud of.. and the stuff I am proud of is disgusting ~ Moe Sizlack

"There is no crisis in energy, the crisis is in imagination" ~ Buckminster Fuller
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 37   Go Up
 

Site Hosted By Ashdown Technologies, Inc.

Page created in 0.069 seconds with 20 queries.