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Author Topic: what are recording schools teaching?  (Read 7409 times)

tom eaton

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what are recording schools teaching?
« on: June 02, 2004, 04:52:06 PM »

A young man came to my place today, a fresh graduate from a recording school (let's call it Empty Jib), and seemed honestly confused that I was set up to track drums, bass, and lead vocalist/guitarist simultaneously.  It took him a few moments to understand that everyone was playing at the same time!  

It makes me feel like an old timer (and I'm not!), but come on.  With an SSL9000J on his resume, I'd have figured he'd have some live tracking dates under his belt.

Are people not making music together enough to teach that concept anymore?  This guy was all about what gear I had, and never asked to hear any work that I had done...it was a fascinating little experience.  

Is everything done assembly line out there in the real world?

-tom


otek

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Re: what are recording schools teaching?
« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2004, 05:21:55 PM »

Tom,

I, too, graduated from Empty Jib once in the dim and distant past.  Smile

Back in the day, pretty much all the session time we got - 4 hours at a time, three times a week - was tracking live bands in one form or another. Or doing live sound, or recording from an on-stage performance.

The question is, how perceptive is the student while all this is going on? How much of the program is he assimilating?

I have actually done some teaching myself since, and I still get phone calls from old students, asking the most rudimentary questions, about things I took great pains to teach them. Some people just can't seem to take it in, unless they find a very specific need for it that hinges on their own responsibility and ability to achieve a result. I found the most brutal - and efficient - way of teaching is putting people in charge... and I mean really in charge. Let them understand that this project stands and falls with their ability to see it through. Dump the whole weight of the problem in their lap, and walk away.

Your intern will go stark raving mad for a short while - and then, magically, he will start making it work.
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Re: what are recording schools teaching?
« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2004, 10:14:29 PM »

I've been noticing this lately too.  My big gripe is editing.  I can't believe people will go to a school for engineering and say they know how to use protools, but then not have the faintest clue.

One time I had a FOB assistant, just out of music school with a degree in sound engineering, who said they knew protools really well.  I put them down in front of a rhythm section session that wasn't recorded to a click and it used playlists for takes, each take started at a different time in the session and since there was no click each take was longer/shorter than the next.

I said to comp the session and use the A section from playlist 2, then measures 23 and 24 of the 1st B section from 5 and the rest of the B sect from 6, the 2nd A from 3, the second B from 5, the bridge from 9 and the ending from 1.  I also spread the chart out on the console in front of them.  

As the assistant started flipping through the playlists he/she started turning pale white, turned to me and said, "how am I supposed to do that, none of them are recorded to the grid?"  This person had no idea where to even begin!!!  I was so pissed!

Normally I would have been nice about it, but since this person had already went on about how they know protools inside and out and are really good with it I didn't cut them any slack and went off on them for a little bit.

Anyway...I agree with Tom.  What are schools teaching nowadays.  It seems like the only thing graduates know how to do is wrap cables and get coffee! I'm baffled sometimes by the new graduates that come up to me and have no idea what an ORTF mic technique is.  Or the difference between spaced pair and XY.  Or very basic things like signal flow and how a patch bay works.

it's amazing.  Maybe it's kids just not paying attention...cuz I've interviewed/worked with some kids that graduated from the college I graduated from and I'm embarrassed to say I graduated from the same school!  Stuff I learned when I was there, it's like these kids are hearing it for the first time!  It's amazing.  I'm really thinking about emailing the school and tell them to fix whatever broke since I graduated cuz the recent graduates are just unacceptable!

Anyway...I'm going off on a rant.  Sorry...
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Ross Hogarth

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Re: what are recording schools teaching?
« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2004, 01:05:50 AM »

I believe that schools these days are not teaching enough basic skills in recording. It is more about DAW's and editing and getting a job in post.
I have had many talks about this with some of my colleagues and I believe that some of us should be out in these schools teaching some Master Classes in recording because these students leave these schools without tools of the real world. Also these students need to learn basic studio ethics and manners and ways of being.
Not to rant to heavily but I would rather have an assistant who has great people skills with a great attitude over some super assistant that cannot relate to the client and myself.
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Rob Darling

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Re: what are recording schools teaching?
« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2004, 09:10:24 AM »

I teach some classes at an audio school.  It is a complicated thing.  Imagine that you have nine months to train one hundred assistants, none of whom you have any power over and who are paying you to be their assistants, and they are only there for five hours a day.  By the way, you have to prepare them completely for recording, mixing, editing, midi, live sound, and post. Get the idea?

It is a very complicated world in the studio these days- Protools alone is a whole studio, from composition to prepro, to recording, to manipulating, to mixing, in a box.  Compare this to the world that Phil Ramone or Bruce Swedien walked into- a couple of microphones, hit record.  Now look at the responses above.  One person wants insane editing knowledge, another wants comprehensive understanding of recording techniques.  Everyone wants them all to understand studio etiquette completely.  Fifteen years ago when you started out, the only requirement was to keep your mouth shut and we, as senior members of the audio commnunity, showed you the rest, understanding and saying that knowledge comes with experience.  If you weren't a putz, you got to keep learning, if not, you were out.

What no one says, and why the schools have to exist now, is that no one wants to train an assistant and none of the studios do it anymore.  Go figure- music people wanting something for nothing.  Everyone dreams that a young Bob Clearmountain walks in 10 years into his career, nine months before he's ready to take off, and you get to ride him into the sunset, having him do all the work for you, and for free because he wants the opportunity.  Great assistants have always been rare, almost exactly as rare as great engineers- there's a relationship there.

The reality is that there is a such wide spread in the quality of students (and it changes every month- one class can have amazing kids, others can be full of morons) and so little time, that the most you can hope for is to make them understand that what they do is a craft and that they will have to work their asses off to succeed, but that it beats the hell out of having a real job.  After that, they have to go out into the world, find their way, and hopefully run into some folks who support and train them.  

I am with Ross.  The freelance nature of our craft, coupled with the very unique fact that we all work alone (how often do two engineers work together?) makes for an environment where everyone says "Sink or swim- I did it on my own," which is wrong.  Now that you have arrived you do it on your own, and everyone will do it on their own once they have arrived, but along the way they have to be taught.  Our craft is under serious attack from the forces of economy, and a lot of knowledge is being lost.  I would love to see a much greater sharing of knowledge in our business.  I don't know how that would happen exactly- I'd love to see it discussed. These forums are a huge step forward.  
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rvdsm

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Re: what are recording schools teaching?
« Reply #5 on: June 03, 2004, 10:35:30 PM »

robdarling@mail.com wrote on Thu, 03 June 2004 08:10

I would love to see a much greater sharing of knowledge in our business.  I don't know how that would happen exactly- I'd love to see it discussed. These forums are a huge step forward.


I agree.

I am a graduate of the recording school in question (in the original post), but at the time I attended the world wide web was in it's early years. I think online forums like this are a great source of information and knowledge sharing. Perhaps if kids today would just surf the web with purpose they could save themselves countless thousands of dollars on an "education".

When I attended Empty Jib I was disappointed in the lack of hands-on training and the great number of people who were there for little or no reason. It takes a real genius to flunk out of trade school because they couldn't stop partying for 5 minutes.

A few of the instructors I had were studio vets and knew what studios wanted from assistants, but a majority of instructors were previous graduates who didn't quite make it into the field. What sucks is that the most "real world education" I got was taught to me outside of class.

I'm just amazed that people are still going to these schools.
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Fletcher

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Re: what are recording schools teaching?
« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2004, 09:05:00 AM »

Back in the days [all 4 of them] of the Music Producers Guild [MPGA] there were a few people within that organization that were calling for a set of standardized tests for rekordin' skool gradiates, and a standardized curriculum [or at least a syllabus] from the Guild... but I haven't heard boo, peep, word one about any of that nonsense since NARASS took the MPGA under it's arm and called it the "Producers and Engineers Wing"... all I've seen are way too expensive to produce glossy lit inviting me to the Latin Grammys...

IMNTLBFHO, what was looking like a struggle with the MPGA looks at best nonexistent from the P&E Wing.  I guess if someone started a fund raising drive for standardization of the school's curriculum they might pay attention [they seem to be all about anything that has anything to do with fundraising], but other than that I don't thing there is enough "positive PR spin" for the current regime within NARAS... just a thought, could be wrong.
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CN Fletcher

mwagener wrote on Sat, 11 September 2004 14:33
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If you've spent most of your life with a few thousand dollars worth of musicians in the studio, making a decision every second and a half... and you and  they are going to have to live with it for the rest of your lives, you'll get pretty arrogant too.  It takes a certain amount of balls to do that... something around three"
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Rob Darling

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Re: what are recording schools teaching?
« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2004, 09:40:31 AM »

I think a standardized test would be a pita- it would only reinforce the biggest weakness most students already have (which I have to beat out of them), which is that they think there is a set of things they have to learn, and then everything is ok- "Hey, I pass the test- give me a job."  

I spend most of my energy trying to get across two simple ideas.  

1.  Skill is only 20%.  The rest is who you are in the room.  You can have all the skill in the world, and it won't get you anywhere.  Engineering is about being there for the other members of the team, most of whom are more important than you are.

2.  You know nothing, and the sooner you understand that, the better.  What did you know at the end of first grade?  Your abc's, how to add and subtract, and you could read See Dick Run.  Just two years later, at the end of third grade, you can multiply and divide, know your multiplication tables, and read chapter books.  By tenth grade, you are through algebra, reading some serious novels, and writing papers.  Stick with it another ten years, and you have a P.H.D.  

After that, I just tell stories to keep them entertained and watch for opportunities to slip shit into their brains.  How much do you really think one person can learn in a day and actually hold?  Not much.  Look at your own career- it is a long, slow process to develop knowledge of a craft, the opposite of school.  The biggest helps I see are things that can make the knowledge an experience rather than just facts.
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meverylame

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Re: what are recording schools teaching?
« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2004, 12:46:03 PM »

I'm currently attending empty jib, and its been the biggest waste of time and money. One of my instructors didn't know how to punch-in using protools. Which would be completely understandable if he was an analog purist, but hes one of the biggest digi pushers I've ever met. I've found that the best education, at least for me, is just recording as much possible. But, I'm probably just young and dumb.
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Jason Kingsland

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Re: what are recording schools teaching?
« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2004, 12:37:14 AM »

The sad part of the trade school thing is the expense vs. experience. I left music school when I realized that I was spending more than a musician's median income. I decided to continue with music but pursue a degree in business instead. Lo and behold before I finished my BA, I was too busy performing to make all my classes and had to drop out. The real irony is I know far more than most graduates of either a business or music school. I applied what I learned and lusted for what I did not untill I gained that knowledge outside the classroom in a real environment.

To make a short story even longer, a freind and I decided to rent a space, pool our home recording gear and pay the rent by recording other folks. Through some practical knowledge we have been able to learn enough to get some nice sounds. Some of what we recorded is on the majors and getting national airplay. If we were to liquidate all of the recording gear we had it would barely pay for 2 years at empty jib (limp spinaker is what we call it).

Since we are a business I have to take resume's all the time. The one's I get from limp spinaker are perhaps the worst. When I speak to them and inform them what gear we are useing they are to say the least, confused. Did someone not tell them that not all studio's have an SSL and pro tools? Once I actually offered a grad (not from limp spinaker) a chance to work for $5 an hour, cash off the books. He informed me he could make more waiting tables. I told him he was right and good luck. BTW this was the last conversation I had on the phone at the studio. I cut it off the next day. I didn't get one call worth the hassle to justify $70 a month.

Most of the guys that graduate from these "high end" trade schools are just rich kids who dont want to work and thier parrents are too blind to kick them in the ass.
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Robert de Buys
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Re: what are recording schools teaching?
« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2004, 01:31:10 AM »

The need a class on internship. Seems this is what many graduates end up doing anyhow. I get my fill of graduates from full sail wanting to hang out.

What a shame.
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Oliver

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Re: what are recording schools teaching?
« Reply #11 on: June 07, 2004, 03:44:39 PM »

I'm in school at the moment in Montreal. After reading this thread I'm feeling very fortunate in that my school seems to be teaching a lot of the things you all mentioned are missing. Whether or not this school is worth the money remains to be seen. I'm halfway through and I think all the theory has been good. It's nothing I couldn't get from reading on my own, however. The real value, to me, comes with having instructors who have a lot of experience. All of my teachers are currently working in the industry. I can't believe this isn't the case at other schools!

For you folks who are really making a living at this, how did you get into the biz? I hear a lot of negative talk about recording schools (and it certainly sounds like much of it is justified) but for those of us who aren't super outgoing or didn't grow up surrounded by musicians this can be a difficult industry to just jump into.

Oliver
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otek

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Re: what are recording schools teaching?
« Reply #12 on: June 07, 2004, 07:55:56 PM »

I am reading all those horror stories about abysmal empty jib grads, and I have to agree about some of it - there are probably a lot of rich kids who think that paying 30 grand or whatever they are charging these days, entitles them to some kind of carte blanche on shitty behavior and bad attitude. Every time, I am thinking, "where do they get these guys"?

I graduated from E.J. back in the mid-nineties, and there were plenty of assholes and losers there back then, too. In fact, I used to sit in with their labs (this was before the school had 2000+ students, ok? there were open lab spots available) and basically hog the console whenever their focus petered out (usually within 20 minutes). Instructors had no problem with it, au contraire, they usually liked it that at least someone was interested.

It's about wanting to learn the shit. There's always people who can and will teach you something, but you need to make yourself available to it. And learning a user interface perfectly is not the be-all, end-all of engineering, although knowing your gear is important.

Sure, it feels kind of disconcerting when you find out your instructor doesn't know the macro for this or that. But I run into people with 20 years experience who still don't know 'em all. Whether you know every shortcut on your computer, chapter and verse, is insignificant. The real lesson is the attitude, and the way to walk and talk, and make a session fun and inspiring.
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Re: what are recording schools teaching?
« Reply #13 on: June 07, 2004, 09:29:11 PM »

Quote:

For you folks who are really making a living at this, how did you get into the biz? I hear a lot of negative talk about recording schools (and it certainly sounds like much of it is justified) but for those of us who aren't super outgoing or didn't grow up surrounded by musicians this can be a difficult industry to just jump into.





In the late 60's, I captured my middle school Jazz band with a teac and two superscope microphones and learned from there. I kept at it since..and bought equipment to do live sound, got noticed by a few record companies and did it that way...from scratch.

When I was a tutor at Full Sail in the very early 90's, I saw that the market would eventually become saturated. I kept my major contracts and then went indie...and contractual to the majors.

School of hard knocks.

I am a heathen for a good live act to grab as a project developer and market them with a final production.
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What good students really need is industry guidance
« Reply #14 on: June 08, 2004, 11:04:32 PM »

I am currently a senior at a 4 year college, studying recording(actually I've been a senior for a while now but we wont get into that).  While I know my program has its fair share of shortcomings, I do feel we are educated in a more rounded manner.  Instead of spending time teaching exactly how a 9000J or some similar console works, more emphasis is placed on understanding signal flow that can be applied to any console.  Engineering students also study a small amount of the business and legal side of the industry before we are even able to touch a console.

What made me quickly realize a place like Full Sail wasn't quite the fit for me instead of this 4 year school was their literature kept saying "oh, not only do we have one SSL room and one Amek room, we have TWO rooms of each!"  It was a clear statement that the place was all about enticing people from their money with stacks of expensive gear.  Perhaps that is why students from that and similar schools portray such an image as they do?  Heck, I am sure my school has produced a few gear snobs.

However, I have lately become very concerned about what I am to do once I graduate next May.  One area my school does lack is in any real assistance attaining a job.  Sure they have some workshops on Resume writing, but what does it REALLY take to get a job in audio?  The only real studio experience I have has been the projects here.  I am confident in my studio abilities, but confidence and a dollar will buy you a cup of coffee.  I also have a good many years of Live Sound experience, which is what has helped me tremendously in the studio; only I doubt that will really help me in looking for studio work as well.  

There is the option to do an internship for class credit this spring.  It would have to be at a Nashville area studio as I would have to continue taking a few classes on certain days.  I can really work anywhere and enjoy it, but I do not believe my girlfriend/one day wife could really find work in digital animation in Nashville.

Basically it all boils down to the total feeling of being lost about the next step.  Heck, what really IS the next step and how do I do it?  I've got this burning fire for audio and am willing to go to any end to make this my career, but with thousands of students pouring out of the trade schools each year and even a hundred or more from mine I just don't see the work as being available.

I guess what this long winded post is asking all professionals following this thread, is to instead of just creating a list of the shortcomings of graduates you have worked with, create a list of both pros and cons.  What do you feel people like myself should concentrate on to be able to effectively locate jobs and work in the industry?  What other things can you recommend we do to set us apart from the rest?

Any student who can spend the time to learn as much as I have from these message boards would also appreciate hearing this information from successful engineers and producers that have turned this passion into a career.  Thank you all for your time and any light you can shed on this matter.

-Nate Bishop
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rvdsm

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Re: What good students really need is industry guidance
« Reply #15 on: June 08, 2004, 11:38:19 PM »

bignate wrote on Tue, 08 June 2004 22:04

What do you feel people like myself should concentrate on to be able to effectively locate jobs and work in the industry?  What other things can you recommend we do to set us apart from the rest?


The only advice I can give you is to be willing to learn as much as possible even if you don't think it has anything to do with your choice of careers, meet as many people as possible and build/maintain relationships with lots of artists, songwriters and musicians.

Bottom line; recognition can come from anywhere and most often from where you least expect it.
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Fletcher

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Re: what are recording schools teaching?
« Reply #16 on: June 09, 2004, 08:15:23 AM »

robdarling@mail.com wrote on Fri, 04 June 2004 09:40

I think a standardized test would be a pita- it would only reinforce the biggest weakness most students already have (which I have to beat out of them), which is that they think there is a set of things they have to learn, and then everything is ok- "Hey, I pass the test- give me a job."


Possibly... but there is basic knowledge that I want the kid to have before he sets foot in my room... the difference between balanced and unbalanced... the difference between -10 and +4... how to operate a patchbay, how an equalizer works, how phantom power works, matching reference levels below 0dbfs, or god forbid, how to actually align a 24 track deck, how to properly fill out a set of recall sheets... I mean real basic shit.

You can't teach 'people skills', they'll either learn to shut the fuck up and pay attention or they won't, simple as that... but I think there is, or should be a minimum set of tools they should have before they leave these skools.  I for one couldn't give a rat's ass if they're an SSL Zen Master or not... that's not their job, their job when leaving school is to assist on a session and learn the craft... they are not going to jump into the chair 20 minutes after graduation they're going to be documenting shit for someone who is sitting in the chair so in my twisted mind they should have the skills to perform that task.

The thought about a basic competency test was just to standardise and define the basic shit these kids should be learning at these skools as opposed to learning the Jedi Knight SSL crap these joints think they're teaching them.

That's all I was talking about... I don't really see how a basic tool set could end up being a pain in your ass, I only see it as hours saved in my life where I don't have to teach these kids the rudiments of a patchbay, or how to document shit, or explain why you can't do ____, or why plugging the guitar directly into the patchbay isn't going to work... or that if I have to tell the little prick that I hate fucking pickles on my sandwich one more time I'm gonna tell him with the end of my fucking boot [yes, I think there should be an entire semester dedicated to getting the lunch order correct, and yes, I sincerely believe they should be tested on this skill before exiting one of these fine learning establishments].
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CN Fletcher

mwagener wrote on Sat, 11 September 2004 14:33
We are selling emotions, there are no emotions in a grid


"Recording engineers are an arrogant bunch.  
If you've spent most of your life with a few thousand dollars worth of musicians in the studio, making a decision every second and a half... and you and  they are going to have to live with it for the rest of your lives, you'll get pretty arrogant too.  It takes a certain amount of balls to do that... something around three"
Malcolm Chisholm

Scott Helmke (Scodiddly)

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Re: what are recording schools teaching?
« Reply #17 on: June 09, 2004, 01:40:51 PM »

A decent "basic skills" test is important in any business.  With my old software company we had a fairly basic test for programming skills - nothing fancy, manuals allowed, use whatever language you wanted if C wasn't your best.  It was amazing how many seemingly good candidates got their asses whipped by that little test.
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Re: what are recording schools teaching?
« Reply #18 on: June 09, 2004, 02:03:15 PM »


Generally for Engineers like Mechanical, Aero and electricals, it used to be once upon a time that an intern was a college student working (summer job) in a field related to his/her degree so that they got "real" hand on experience so that when they graduated they were somewhat familiar with something other than pictures and text. It was also supposed to build important relationship with possible future employers. In some fields you don't get your degree unless you did your internship to the satisfaction of the intern boss. There was a relationship of the academic part to the lab part, now there is more focus on the academics without alot of the get your hands dirty ways of the past. When audio starts to injure or kill people because of poor mic choice nothing will probably change. I do remember that Bob Olhsson had to take an IQ test once to get an engineering job. Maybe it should make a comeback? But if they do Im going to fight for a grandfather clause so I can keep my stuff Smile



Peace,
Dennis
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bignate

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Re: what are recording schools teaching?
« Reply #19 on: June 09, 2004, 05:46:28 PM »

rvdsm:

Thank you for your advice.  I have made good friendships with fellow students in the program and with a few of the musicians I have recorded.  I hope I always leave a lasting good impression on each new person I meet regardless of a connection with my profession or not.  In the end, I do understand that networking plays a large part, and I could still use a hefty dose of it.


Fletcher wrote on Wed, 09 June 2004 07:15


Possibly... but there is basic knowledge that I want the kid to have before he sets foot in my room... the difference between balanced and unbalanced... the difference between -10 and +4... how to operate a patchbay, how an equalizer works, how phantom power works, matching reference levels below 0dbfs, or god forbid, how to actually align a 24 track deck, how to properly fill out a set of recall sheets... I mean real basic shit. . . .


. . . That's all I was talking about... I don't really see how a basic tool set could end up being a pain in your ass, I only see it as hours saved in my life where I don't have to teach these kids the rudiments of a patchbay, or how to document shit, or explain why you can't do ____, or why plugging the guitar directly into the patchbay isn't going to work... or that if I have to tell the little prick that I hate fucking pickles on my sandwich one more time I'm gonna tell him with the end of my fucking boot [yes, I think there should be an entire semester dedicated to getting the lunch order correct, and yes, I sincerely believe they should be tested on this skill before exiting one of these fine learning establishments].



Fletcher, I agree with you 100%.  I have concerned my studies in school so far with what is going to make me a better assistant, while still learning the tasks of an engineer. There are a handful of good students coming out of recording schools, but we represent a very small minority in the sea of graduates.

On the same note as my previous post, what would you recommend GOOD students and aspiring AEs such as myself do to set us apart from the rest of the pack when it comes to finding work?  I'd hate to be glazed over in applying for work just because some people before me, from the same school or similar schools, were not suited for this career.  There are talented and hard working students out there, but we really need advice from our future employers as to getting work.

Once again, thank you and everyone else for your time in assisting other quality students and myself on this forum.

-Nate Bishop
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