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[binary]

Hi guys..

I tracked a Steinway Model D concert grand yesterday (I'll put the photos up later in this thread)

steinwaytestmix1.mp3 - 1.71MB

The room wasn't ideal.. It was done in the piano shop, which didn't have a very high ceiling.

The mic choices I had were 2X Beyer Mc930's (cardiod sdc's) - matched pair
1 X C&T Naked eye ribbon
1 X Neumann M269c

pre's - Dav BG1 and Api 312c x2


I only had a pair of cans to monitor from..

I went through loads of mics and combinations, ended up just going for the pair of scd's into the API.


It's for a neo folk style album.

I'm worried about phasing and general tone now.. the instrument is very mellow and soft.. more suited for classical pieces probably.

Juts want general opinions..

The artist loves it.. but i'm more a fan of brighter more defined pianos and actually prefered a Bechstein we tried.. But she said it didn't feel right.

Just lemmie know your thoughts. Thank you.




LINKY:  

[Fletcher]

binary wrote on Thu, 22 May 2008 06:46

The artist loves it.

Well... you got the important part done

If the player/artist is happy with the results, likes the feel and the tone of the instrument... and has an inspired performance... all your job is from there is to take the variations in air pressure provided by the player and store them somewhere in a manner conducive to the artist's vision of the music.

In other words... if you got a great performance and the artist likes the presentation you've done your day's work [hopefully for a day's pay].

Peace.

[Halfway Competent]

OMG dude...  I LOVE the tone of Steinways!  Nice lushness to the sound, a lot more detail than I've gotten out of Steinways with lesser pres.  Here's what I'm hearing that may be what's bothering you, though.

Definitely some warm smoothness to the tone...  say, 200 Hz and below.  There's also a bit of top-end sparkle (could be from the MP3 encoding) that sounds a little out of place.  I'm hearing a relaxed midrange sound.  So, try this:  

Use some low shelf at 120 Hz or so, nice, long slope.  Drop the lows about 3 dB or whatever sounds good to you.  Or try a 1-2 octave wide bell dip centered around 100-200 Hz.  Again, don't take much out.

Roll off the highs at about 4k...  Put a little, wide bump in the mids about 800-1000 Hz.

If you re-record...  Pull the mics away a bit.  While she's playing, move the bass-side mic around while listening to your cans and find a spot that's not as boomy (there is definitely a bass sweet spot in those!).  You'll likely only have to move it a few inches.  

These are just suggestions, and I'm totally pulling this out of my rear since I didn't actually try these suggestions.    But there's definitely a little extra boom, and a little extra sparkle around 4k, and a relaxed mid.  If you reverse those, you might get the sound you're looking for.  I don't hear any phase problems as such...  There is a wide stereo spread, though. Don't take this as criticism...  Overall, I think you've captured a lovely sound!

But you said the artist likes the mellow sound of this piano, and didn't like the Bechstein.  The scooped mids in the sound of the piano could turn out to be a good thing for you if you're going to have vocals and/or some guitars and banjos (don't know what all goes into neo-folk).  As far as feeling right...  I'm not a piano player, but I've pounded on all sorts of pianos...  And the Steinways definitely do have a particular "feel" to the key action that other pianos don't.  I've found that whatever crap I'm pounding out on a Steinway always sounds better than on, say, a Kawai...  It is very easy to control dynamics on a Steinway (Kawais are just plain loud), and the ease of playing it helped me relax a little bit.  So, yeah, if she can work her magic on the Steinway, that's the piano to use.  

[Former Oceanway drone]

Halfway Competent wrote on Fri, 23 May 2008 22:17

OMG dude...  I LOVE the tone of Steinways!  Nice lushness to the sound, a lot more detail than I've gotten out of Steinways with lesser pres.  Here's what I'm hearing that may be what's bothering you, though. Definitely some warm smoothness to the tone...  say, 200 Hz and below.  There's also a bit of top-end sparkle (could be from the MP3 encoding) that sounds a little out of place.  I'm hearing a relaxed midrange sound.  So, try this:   Use some low shelf at 120 Hz or so, nice, long slope.  Drop the lows about 3 dB or whatever sounds good to you.  Or try a 1-2 octave wide bell dip centered around 100-200 Hz.  Again, don't take much out. Roll off the highs at about 4k...  Put a little, wide bump in the mids about 800-1000 Hz. If you re-record...  Pull the mics away a bit.  While she's playing, move the bass-side mic around while listening to your cans and find a spot that's not as boomy (there is definitely a bass sweet spot in those!).  You'll likely only have to move it a few inches.   These are just suggestions, and I'm totally pulling this out of my rear since I didn't actually try these suggestions.    But there's definitely a little extra boom, and a little extra sparkle around 4k, and a relaxed mid.  If you reverse those, you might get the sound you're looking for.  I don't hear any phase problems as such...  There is a wide stereo spread, though. Don't take this as criticism...  Overall, I think you've captured a lovely sound! But you said the artist likes the mellow sound of this piano, and didn't like the Bechstein.  The scooped mids in the sound of the piano could turn out to be a good thing for you if you're going to have vocals and/or some guitars and banjos (don't know what all goes into neo-folk).  As far as feeling right...  I'm not a piano player, but I've pounded on all sorts of pianos...  And the Steinways definitely do have a particular "feel" to the key action that other pianos don't.  I've found that whatever crap I'm pounding out on a Steinway always sounds better than on, say, a Kawai...  It is very easy to control dynamics on a Steinway (Kawais are just plain loud), and the ease of playing it helped me relax a little bit.  So, yeah, if she can work her magic on the Steinway, that's the piano to use.

Do you prefer Hamburg or NY Steinways(you even know they are different?)? DId you know that modern Bechsteins are made in China and have nothing to do with either European craftsmanship or the old Bechsteins? Have you heard a Fazioli? A Seiler? A B

[Halfway Competent]

Yeah, man...  Take a chill pill and re-read my post.  

As I stated, I'm no pianist...  My experience with pianos is really limited.  You'll notice I only name-dropped two well-known brands.  Of the two that I've pounded on, the Steinway had nicer action, and nicer tone.  (I've pounded on others, but I don't recall them.)  This is as informed as my opinion is, and if it doesn't meet your standard of being informed, then I guess I'm "wanking".  In no way did I imply Steinway (NY or Hamburg) was the definitive piano.  If it was, all those other guys you mentioned might as well close up shop, eh?  But they don't, and people continue to buy them (I assume), so they must have something to offer the music world.  

I've said I love the tone of Steinways (that I've heard, and I have no idea which model they were, or which factory they came from), and that's true.  I'm not going to justify that, because it needs no justification.  There might be some Steinway that I'd think sounds like shit...  But generally speaking, it's a high-end name, and the majority of their product line is likely to reflect that pedigree.

I could also say I love the sound of Neumann microphones better than Audio-Technica.  Some people might disagree, others might say, "Yeah, me too!"  Or someone might ask, "The M149 or the U47?  Valve U47 or FET47?  Neumann Berlin or Neumann Geffell?  What about Brauner, or Telefunken, or AKG?"

So, let's get back to discussing the recording of this piano, and helping the engineer get the sound he's looking for.

[Fletcher]

...but the artist said they were happy[?!?!]... that's my usual stopping point until the next time comes around to record an instrument... and by then the arrangment is different and chances are pretty great that even if it's the same piano with the same player a slightly different tone/texture will be called for to create the proper texture for the new song.

I could be wrong about that... I'm wrong about a lot of things.

Peace.

[Halfway Competent]

Fletcher wrote on Wed, 04 June 2008 07:17

...but the artist said they were happy[?!?!]... that's my usual stopping point until the next time comes around to record an instrument... and by then the arrangment is different and chances are pretty great that even if it's the same piano with the same player a slightly different tone/texture will be called for to create the proper texture for the new song. I could be wrong about that... I'm wrong about a lot of things. Peace.

I think by "the artist loves it" the OP meant the piano, rather than the recording.  I also could be wrong.    But yeah, whatever instrument it takes to make your sound (many Mannheim Steamroller songs made use of a toy piano), that's the one to use.

[tom eaton]

By the time you double the parts with the glockenspiel it'll all work out fine.

Wanna see a beautiful piano?

http://www.ejbuckpiano.com/Mike.html

Larry Buck, the restorer, still kindly comes and tunes my toy piano (a Yamaha).. and he knows his shtuff.  I love having someone I can call when I need to know this kind of stuff... and someone who can tell me WHY something sounds the way it does, not simply that it's different.  

I love pianos... but it is a lifetime (or a few) of work to know the whys and hows to make a great one greater.

-tom

[Former Oceanway drone]

Halfway Competent wrote on Wed, 04 June 2008 01:39

Yeah, man...  Take a chill pill and re-read my post.

I seem to recall writing, not once but twice, that you needn't take my comments personally, that I just wanted to convey some information. My intention was not to mock you, I really just wanted to clarify some things that I've heard from lots of engineers over the years who find themselves in positions of authority talking about things they know relatively little about. Mea maxima culpa.

I had no desire to attack you, just the ignorance that I sensed in your posting and the popularity of such ignorance everywhere. People who speak authoritatively without occassionally being told that they do not know everything tend to develop a God complex, I thought I might combat that on a small level. Obviously, given your reaction, my intent didn't come across. Thank you for the lesson. I don't know you, you might be totally brilliant, I just felt that part of your commentary lacked authority and called you on it.

As for taking a pill, no thank you, I leave drug use to the professionals.

Cheers,

Alan Tomlinson

[Halfway Competent]

tom eaton wrote on Wed, 04 June 2008 11:36

By the time you double the parts with the glockenspiel it'll all work out fine. Wanna see a beautiful piano? http://www.ejbuckpiano.com/Mike.html Larry Buck, the restorer, still kindly comes and tunes my toy piano (a Yamaha).. and he knows his shtuff.  I love having someone I can call when I need to know this kind of stuff... and someone who can tell me WHY something sounds the way it does, not simply that it's different.   I love pianos... but it is a lifetime (or a few) of work to know the whys and hows to make a great one greater. -tom

Wow, nice filigree!  Don't think I could do anything like that...  

[vernier]

Quote:

Hi guys.. I tracked a Steinway Model D concert grand yesterday

Sounds great ...awesome sounding piano ..don't change a thing.

[jstuart]

As a Steinway owner ( 6' not 9), I will say that the individual player will completely change the tone. That being said, the tone on your recording was mellow, and the player was a mellow (Not tremendously dynamic )player, who stayed in the middle of the keyboard, so it's hard to tell how it might sound with a "bigger" piece. So if they liked it , call it good.

I will comment that the image seemed unstable, as in the melody notes come out of unexpected places. ( it all seemed a bit vague, but that stood out to me). I've heard that happen because of mic/lid interaction.... You didn't mention your placement, so I'd be interested to know what you did. There was also some high pitched sound around 25 sec or so, that sounded like there was something touching a string.... maybe that, and the image, is just mp3 wonderfulness....

Overall, it has a pleasant sound, and again, if they like it, you've done your job just right.
j

[Stephen Payne]

Quote:

You didn't mention your placement, so I'd be interested to know what you did.

Yes please,
Also I agree that if the Artist Loves It ,meaning the recording, then great!!

[Tone Laborer]

tom eaton wrote on Wed, 04 June 2008 14:36

By the time you double the parts with the glockenspiel it'll all work out fine.

Hamburg glockenspiel or NY glockenspeil?

I bet you don't even know the difference, nothing personal.