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[compasspnt]

An amount over five figures for an excellent 49 is not way way out of line these days.

[Klaus Heyne]

This keeps coming up in this forum a lot:

Quote:

If you are dumb enough to pay 11,000 $ for a microphone...

A high price for a vintage mic is mentioned, and some respond with puzzlement, others are offended or disgusted, or feel the need to disparage those who pay a high price (or ask it).

Here is something I said here a while back about this subject:

As far as I can see, the market of luxury goods, like vintage microphones, is open, and free of government interference or organised racketeering.
Therefore, no one is forced to buy or sell a microphone at a price other than what the seller and buyer determine is right or acceptable.

While it's understandably frustrating that items we would love to own and use are slipping out of our reach, into the hands of traders and collectors of luxury goods, I see no better, more constructive, way to protest the high prices for vintage mics than for modern mic builders to show the world that a contemporary mic can fulfil the exact same function as emotionally and technically satisfying as the high-priced vintage mics could, thus eventually exerting a downward pressure on the price of high quality microphones.

[bigbone]

LOL

Klaus with all respect you make me laugh; I'm far from been frustrated, I can pay 11,000 $ or more for a microphone.
I can afford it, it's just that you don't need that to make great record.

Anyway, you are right, there is a better way to protest, it's to make record without those vintage microphones, and remember the ''so call '' microphone experts in here, all those songs were made because of the talent behind those microphones.


JN

[bigbone]

compasspnt wrote on Fri, 19 February 2010 17:22

An amount over five figures for an excellent 49 is not way way out of line these days.

For me it is.

[kats]

Klaus Heyne wrote on Fri, 19 February 2010 17:31

While it's understandably frustrating that items we would love to own and use are slipping out of our reach, into the hands of traders and collectors of luxury goods, I see no better, more constructive, way to protest the high prices for vintage mics than for modern mic builders to show the world that a contemporary mic can fulfil the exact same function as emotionally and technically satisfying as the high-priced vintage mics could, thus eventually exerting a downward pressure on the price of high quality microphones.

The assumption being that these mics are trading for such high values due to their sound. Like most luxury items, branding and status symbol play a very large part in the value of its collectibility. It's like buying a Ferrari to go Sunday driving. Sure it's a great car, but 90% of the owners don't buy it for its performance stats, nor do they intend on driving the car remotely near its capability. Not only that, even if someone built a better car considerably cheaper - it's the Ferrari that will still garner the attention even if it is the inferior car.

So, even if there were better mics being built today, it does not automatically mean that it would cause downward pressure on the price of  vintage classics. All they have to know is that, better or worse, nothing will sound exactly like an old U47 so the symbolism shall remain.

[Klaus Heyne]

You may have misunderstood what I tried to express:

I did not say that the advent of new, high quality microphones would put a downward pressure on the price of vintage ones, but enlarging the pool simply would make high quality microphones more affordable for more engineers, artists and producers, due to the number of competing new products that may be available- all of them vying for a relatively limited market. The bulk of the mics in that lofty category may indeed primarily consist of the new crop, relegating the vintage ones to an exotic playground for the super-rich (which still does not diminish their intrinsic value as tools.)

We already start seeing this trend of better and better quality at ever lower prices in the class of mid- and low-priced recording microphones:

Inflation-adjusted, there has never been a time before when you could buy such  relatively good quality mics, like some models in the Audio Technica line, or some of the Chinese or even German- or Austrian-made offerings for so little: street price for a halfway decent home-recording LDC is now around $200 to $400.-  

If you want to step down one notch further, some of the MXL mics give the Radio Shack beginner's models of the old days a run for the money at $100.- or even less.

[seedyunderbelly.com]

And for people Who make their living recording vocals 10k is not that much for a tool that can up the recording ease and quality of the vocal recording even if only by a few percent  or by making it happen more qucikly-  

Timbre is not the central component of muic but it is sure enjoyable when it is there in a large way-

I know car service drivers that make less than many of us and buy  50k cars and switch them every 4 years...   Chefs with Knives that cost a fortune..  Even some Lawyers have silly expensive pens to go along with their watch collections...

@Big Bone, Is it needed to make a good recording?  Surely No you are of course correct-   Is it Helpful?  I think so  Is it fun?  For me Yes.

I have never lost money on vintage mics they have been a pleasure to use and own and I have used them to make In My opinion better recordings than I could have without them..   So what is not to like!  



j

[kats]

Klaus Heyne wrote on Sat, 20 February 2010 00:08

You may have misunderstood what I tried to express: I did not say that the advent of new, high quality microphones would put a downward pressure on the price of vintage ones, but enlarging the pool simply would make high quality microphones more affordable for more engineers, artists and producers, due to the number of competing new products that may be available- all of them vying for a relatively limited market.

Ah okay. That makes sense.

[Stephen Andrew Bright]

The problem with vintage mic pricing theory is how do you explain the fact that these very same mics were tossed in the dumpster 20 or so years ago??? Were they so bad back then that they needed to be trashed, and are they so good right now that they cost more than 10k?

The answer, it seems to me, is far more complicated than simple supply and demand. Also, Klaus' pricing theory does not seem to account for overpaying. How can you tell when a fool has been separated from his money, or when the price for an item really should be this high???

For me, the market is not an accurate predictor or the real value of mics. There are trends and hype that overvalue certain mics, and undervalue others. And even within these trends, sales prices can vary 100% depending -- not on condition, but on who has disposable income available at any given time.

For me, the Boutique mic makers have proven their point that you can still make mics at the same level of quality as the classics. They might not sound identical, but they are at the same level of quality.

The problem for the mass market is that the large mic producers have dropped the ball on this and may never recover, for several reasons: 1) they failed to realize that tube mics will be in high demand again and neglected to stock up on NOS tubes in quantities large enough for a decent production run; 2) big companies have little interest in achieving high quality per se, but only in making products that meet the demands of the market at their respective price points, and thus are always looking to trim costs without losing market share. 3) large companies are loathe to copy an older design, because it would admit that they can't come up with anything better -- think C12VR.

For me, there is plenty of room in finding amazing deals on vintage mics that are currently undervalued - like SDCs. In the SDC world, you can still get classic vintage designs at 50% of the cost of a new one. For me, gathering undervalued vintage SDC designs combined with some modern boutique LDCs can create an amazing mic locker for about the same cost as a single vintage U47.

I still have hope that affordable mics that sound phenomenal are right around the corner. The people that can make this happen are here.

Stephen

[compasspnt]

That depends upon what you mean by "affordable."

A high quality capsule and transformer is going to cost a certain amount, there is no way around that part of it at this point.

And there just are not enough microphone grade high quality tubes available anymore to make massive quantities of microphones.

[Eric H.]

Stephen Andrew Bright wrote on Sun, 21 February 2010 16:19

The problem with vintage mic pricing theory is how do you explain the fact that these very same mics were tossed in the dumpster 20 or so years ago??? Were they so bad back then that they needed to be trashed, and are they so good right now that they cost more than 10k?

I think that this is a very valuable argument, mostly for the broadcast world. Lots a studios didn't trash their old tube mics, but the value was certainly very low compared to what it is now (I remember something about a C12 costing less than a new C414 ULS in some thread)
I think that for a long time, since the end of the 19th century, audio technology was making real progress with every new design.
The transistor certainly changed  a lot of things, but convenience and flexibility in application is most of the time the winner in our business. Today, we witness the disappearing of large analog console to the profit of big DAW controller or digital mixers. 35 years ago, it was the fet mics take over the tube mics.

[Klaus Heyne]

Stephen Andrew Bright wrote on Sun, 21 February 2010 08:19

(...) For me, the market is not an accurate predictor or the real value of mics.

Fair enough that you don't think the free market determines the true value of a recording tool. That then begs the question: if not the market, then what is your preferred indicator for the true value in a mic, and how can the general buying public benefit from your better valuation model?

Quote:

For me, there is plenty of room in finding amazing deals on vintage mics that are currently undervalued - like SDCs.

For the benefit of readers, please list some of these undervalued models. In the Neumann line, I cannot find a single mic that is undervalued: All KM8x in decent shape are now well above $1k; KM5x: astronomical.
Yes, you can still get an AKG 451 for a few hundred dollars, but its application range in the studio environment is and always was rather limited.

Quote:

Also, Klaus' pricing theory does not seem to account for overpaying. How can you tell when a fool has been separated from his money, or when the price for an item really should be this high?

Nothing easier than that: you average sale (not asking!) prices of a used mic model over a few months.

Quote:

The problem with vintage mic pricing theory is: how do you explain the fact that these very same mics were tossed in the dumpster 20 or so years ago???  Were they so bad back then that they needed to be trashed

No, they were never any worse than they are now. The (relatively short-lived) price erosion of vintage mics can be explained with two factors:

1. large, government-owned and funded European broadcast institutions auctioned off ALL of their tube mics in the early to mid 1970s because they were deemed "outdated" by the bean-counters. These auctions were an aberration of the free market: massive amounts of precious mics were dumped at low-or no-limit prices, due to a complete lack of incentive on the seller's side to try to sell at current market prices. Simply put: these sales were handled as write-offs.

Curiously, as soon as these auctioned (basically free) mics hit the shores of the U.S., after their importation by smart business people (most of them well-known and still active in the mic business today), their prices, now determined by real, undistorted market conditions, multiplied many-fold.

2. There is always a time lag between the introduction of an inferior successor hyped as technical advancement and the recognition by the public of the fact that the successor may be a dud: VW made a very-well built Passat model (B5.5) through 2005. In 2006 they introduced the successor. It took two years for the used market to reflect the inferiority of the B6 model, and for the prices of the B5.5 to creep upwards. Now, the successor, newer and fancier in may ways, can be had for the same or less than its five- or more-years-old predecessor.  

From the world of microphones, I could just cite the examples of the C12 vs. C12A or the U67 vs. U87 to make the same point: Initially, the successor was thought to be an advancement over the predecessor, until the market thought (and still thinks) otherwise.

[kats]

Klaus Heyne wrote on Sun, 21 February 2010 18:57

Initially, the successor was thought to be an advancement over the predecessor, until the market thought (and still thinks) otherwise.

You bring something up, that I was going to say earlier. There was time when newer usually meant improved, better, or more applicable to current trends. So it's not a surprise that FET mics were accepted as an advancement without significant real world use.

[Stephen Andrew Bright]

An easy way to calculate the value of a vintage mic is by a percentage of the current replacement model. If the vintage design is superior, than anything under 100% of a new one is undervalued, anything under 50% is a bargain, and anything under 25% is a downright steal.

Here are the most undervalued SDCs in my opinion:

<http://www.schoepsclassics.de/1965_cmmt30.htm>

These often come with the classic M934 capsules, and can be purchased and serviced by Schoeps and delivered to your door for under 25% of the cost of a new CMC6 MK5. They were used by the French ORTF for critical recordings, and still sound phenomenal, in my opinion. Plus, they share thread patterns with the M221F, so you can use the same caps on both the AC701 and FET bodies.

Speaking of Schoeps, it is hard not to find an undervalued SDC in their entire line. Even the universally coveted M221b M934s almost always go for less than a new CMC65, and when compared to the new M222 the discount is even more staggering.

Neumann SDCs are also undervalued (but not nearly by as much) if you compare the KM84 to the KM140 series -- since they both have interchangeable heads -- the KM8x series almost always go for less than its new KM140 successor.

You also have to talk about vintage mic pricing, because there is a pretty big range. If you buy vintage retail you can expect to pay 2-3 times the going rate on eBay. As an example, a KM53 vintage retail is 4.2k, but recently on ebay 2k; KM54 3.6k retail, but recently on eBay 1.7k. So if you by on the open ebay market, you can get the KM5x series for roughly the cost of a KM140. KM88s/KM86s as well.

Now is still not too late to invest in vintage SDCs, in my opinion.

Stephen

[ryan streber]

Quote:
"Neumann SDCs are also undervalued (but not nearly by as much) if you compare the KM84 to the KM140 series -- since they both have interchangeable heads -- the KM8x series almost always go for less than its new KM140 successor."

Although it's true that Neumann's current retail price on the KM140 series is above what one typically pays for a good condition KM84, look at the used prices on the KM140s.  I got a perfect-condition sequential pair of KM140s last year for less than a single 84 typically fetches.  In general, the new vs. used prices for current production Neumanns are vastly different.  Look at the M147, for example.  I think this says a lot about the quality and desirability of the later (esp. transformerless) models.  Not sure if this complicates the argument at all, but I thought I'd throw it out there.

For Schoeps, there are definitely deals to be had on older series like the CMT, but I think that's not a matter of being undervalued, but rather that the current-production equivalent is equal to (if not better than) the older versions in quality, reliability, flexibility, and sonics (at least for their FET mics.)