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[YZ]

I used to pay 1.29 per liter, then months ago it went down to 1.13; today it is at 1.09 and the forecast is that it will remain at this price for a while.

Ethanol, for my E100 car, here in Brazil.

Gasoline is at around 2.29, for comparison.

Meanwhile, in other places people are still discussing what to do and which direction should be taken to get something mass-marketable by the middle of the next decade.

[rankus]

Sure. Go ahead... rub it in

Brazil is the model to watch IMO.  Ethanol and electric should be priority #1 here in North America

[YZ]

rankus wrote on Fri, 20 June 2008 14:48

Sure. Go ahead... rub it in

Quote:

Brazil is the model to watch IMO.  Ethanol and electric should be priority #1 here in North America

We're having problems now with electricity...  when we built the Itaipu dam we had to make a treaty with Paraguay because the dam's lake crosses the border; the decision was to split the generators half and half and Paraguay agreed to sell us the excess from their half (as amortization for the building costs, they did not put a penny into the building of the dam) because the whole country does not consume even 10% of that.

Now Paraguay wants to back down because other neighboring countries want to pay more for the energy...

Talks halted when Paraguay realized that their prospective  clients were not interested in splitting the costs of the needed transmission lines, but now they want more $ per kW from us.

Complicated business.

Also, our economy is growing faster than we can build dams, so a few emergency thermo generators were arranged for, mostly powered by natural gas; then Bolivia went 'nationalizing' _our_ nat gas plants there and hiked the price.

Now we're working towards ethanol-turbine generators.

[compasspnt]

Ethanol works great in Brasil, where sugar cane can be grown plentifully.

In the US, it won't grow so, and corn is not nearly as viable.

Unfortunately, won't work in America, at least yet.

[C.O. Jones]

rankus wrote on Fri, 20 June 2008 12:48

Sure. Go ahead... rub it in Brazil is the model to watch IMO.  Ethanol and electric should be priority #1 here in North America

Ethanol  and BioDiesel are terribly inefficient to produce, but more importantly they're what's got corn and soybean prices triple or quadruple what they were five years ago, sending shockwaves through global food markets leading to food-riots and starvation worldwide.  Great job we've done of stepping on our dicks with that one.


Worshipers of Mother Earth would have done as much good and far less harm by throwing a virgin into a volcano.

Jones

[Barry Hufker]

The cost of gasoline in Kuwait is 78 cents (American) per gallon.  In Saudi Arabia it is 91 cents...

[C.O. Jones]

Barry Hufker wrote on Fri, 20 June 2008 13:59

The cost of gasoline in Kuwait is 78 cents (American) per gallon.  In Saudi Arabia it is 91 cents...

So what?  This is proof that you're getting screwed?

You are.

By the United States Congress.

Jones

[Barry Hufker]

I don't know you can draw that conclusion.  They are after all the oil producing countries.  You can look at every country's price per gallon here.  We're not the only ones paying high prices.  Congress isn't dictating the prices in all these other countries.

http://money.cnn.com/pf/features/lists/global_gasprices/

What *is* interesting is that gas in Puerto Rico, a semi-autonomous territory of the United States, is $1.74 per gallon.  I admit how that happens is a mystery to me...

[C.O. Jones]

Barry Hufker wrote on Fri, 20 June 2008 14:13

What *is* interesting is that gas in Puerto Rico, a semi-autonomous territory of the United States, is $1.74 per gallon.  I admit how that happens is a mystery to me...

Good point.  I wonder if it's not taxed?  Maybe even subsidized?  Subsidization is certainly happening in some Arab countries and Venezuela.

Jones

[YZ]

C.O. Jones wrote on Fri, 20 June 2008 15:39

Ethanol  and BioDiesel are terribly inefficient to produce,

Sure, if you use corn instead of sugar cane for ethanol and soy/peanut/more corn/sunflower instead of mamona for biodiesel.

Quote:

but more importantly they're what's got corn and soybean prices triple or quadruple what they were five years ago, sending shockwaves through global food markets leading to food-riots and starvation worldwide.  Great job we've done of stepping on our dicks with that one.

I agree 110%.

To make matters worse, the climate did not help rice crops recently, and the rise of the level of the ocean in the last few years had salt water invading rice plantations in southwest asia, ruining them; luckily the farmers could convert to shrimp cultivation and at least make money to buy the rice they need to eat.

Another factor is the rise in oil prices; in some asian locations the cost of freight, diesel for the tractors/implements, fertilizers and such has risen so much that planting rice became non-profitable so some farmers quit planting rice in the last season.

Quote:

Worshipers of Mother Earth would have done as much good and far less harm by throwing a virgin into a volcano. Jones

There's no escape: fossil fuels will not be available in the future, the earth's stock will end some day (sooner or later) and our global economy is far too dependent of this single source of energy; this is a dangerous situation that has to be dealt with.

The soaring prices are only making this fact clearer for everybody.

People will have be more rational about energy consumption overall.

[YZ]

compasspnt wrote on Fri, 20 June 2008 15:31

Ethanol works great in Brasil, where sugar cane can be grown plentifully. In the US, it won't grow so, and corn is not nearly as viable. Unfortunately, won't work in America, at least yet.

You're right, Terry.

But if the countries that can grow sugar cane for fuel do it, international demand for oil will diminish and so will the price.

And if they produce more ethanol than they need and export this excess, maybe to the U.S. of A., then less corn will need to be consumed for ethanol production, lowering not only the price of oil but also the price of corn-dependent foods.

We don't need to convert 100% of today's oil-consuming stuff to Ethanol, only enough to balance the equation.

[rankus]

Barry Hufker wrote on Fri, 20 June 2008 12:13

They are after all the oil producing countries.

Canada is an oil producing country... almost 5 bucks a gallon up here these days...

It is a head scratcher... I think these "texas oil boys" have global clout.

Remind me of the Deboers diamond thing

[Electric Warrior]

The oil price is not only driven by supply and demand anymore, but also by speculation: http://www.econbrowser.com/archives/2006/04/contango_specul. html

I think BioDiesel's potential environmental effects are rather worrying: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biodiesel#Environmental_effects

[Edvaard]

YZ wrote on Fri, 20 June 2008 18:46

And if they produce more ethanol than they need and export this excess, maybe to the U.S. of A., then less corn will need to be consumed for ethanol production, lowering not only the price of oil but also the price of corn-dependent foods.

And to that end ...



 http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/04/16/business/LA-FIN-Br azil-US-Ethanol.php



Jeb Bush sez:

       
               -------------------------------------------------

The 54 cents per gallon tariff on Brazilian ethanol — made from sugarcane much more efficiently than ethanol produced from corn in the United States — "doesn't make sense to me," Bush told agribusiness executives in Sao Paulo.

               -------------------------------------------------



Just so people know that the extra 54 cents is why we don't see much of that sugar ethanol for the time being.

[Strummer]

Electric Warrior wrote on Fri, 20 June 2008 19:46

The oil price is not only driven by supply and demand anymore, but also by speculation:   http://www.econbrowser.com/archives/2006/04/contango_specul. html

I heard an interview last week on NPR, here's a link to the text.

http://marketplace.publicradio.org/display/web/2008/06/16/cf tc/

Too many schemes to make money with money and avoid "doing" anything.

EDIT: Changed link to Marketplace source.