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Author Topic: "Bush Administration Committed War Crimes"- Gen. Taguba, U.S.  (Read 3050 times)

mgod

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Re: "Bush Administration Committed War Crimes"- Gen. Taguba, U.S.
« Reply #15 on: June 19, 2008, 10:54:02 am »

Barry Hufker wrote on Wed, 18 June 2008 20:32

But you're not including the emotional stress panties on your head can cause.  I know.  I've been there.  And it wasn't pretty.

I suppose that depends on who was wearing them at the time.

Hallams wrote on Wed, 18 June 2008 21:29

I know this seems like going back a few years but when the cold war ended it was an opportunity to "give peace a chance"
That opportunity has been missed and the USA has lost a lot of goodwill internationally. It could have/should have displayed its "Leadership" in international affairs in a manner that made her people proud to be American. I feel the need to say i have no problem with the American people and really don't want to be involved in verbal bashing the US etc, but as you stated Barry, "i just don't get who these people are."

In the modern US, the market rules all. And I mean ALL. We who live here are in the largest petri dish in history and a grand experiment is being conducted on us, with our earnings. We are rats in a maze here, but there is no goal in the maze, simply dead-ends where we find ourselves inundated with federally protected toxins at our own expense.

Politics was called the art of compromise, but here it is simply, and in a way purely, about power. The Supreme Court is as corrupted by power as any other institution. The very thing that the last decent republican president warned us about has come to pass, as he predicted it would. Under any reasonably functioning government, Sandra Day O'Connor would be in prison now for betraying her oath and her country. But criminal behavior at the highest levels is an acceptable fact now here, as long as it doesn't interfere with profits.

The ownership society that conservatives like to tout invites us to buy grains-of-sand-sized shares in the con-game, so that we too can benefit from our own evisceration and that of our brothers and sisters.

This not democracy, it not representative government, it is not a republic - it is capitalism run free and in control of everything. Everything.

DS
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MagnetoSound

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Re: "Bush Administration Committed War Crimes"- Gen. Taguba, U.S.
« Reply #16 on: June 19, 2008, 11:07:24 am »

mgod wrote on Thu, 19 June 2008 15:54


In the modern US, the market rules all. And I mean ALL.

(snip)

But criminal behavior at the highest levels is an acceptable fact now here, as long as it doesn't interfere with profits.

The ownership society that conservatives like to tout invites us to buy grains-of-sand-sized shares in the con-game, so that we too can benefit from our own evisceration and that of our brothers and sisters.

This not democracy, it not representative government, it is not a republic - it is capitalism run free and in control of everything. Everything.

DS



Great post, Dan.

You have just articulated my exact feelings about modern Britain too.

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Barry Hufker

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Re: "Bush Administration Committed War Crimes"- Gen. Taguba, U.S.
« Reply #17 on: June 19, 2008, 11:29:37 am »

I agree as well Dan.

The funny thing about "tax and spend" liberals is that this Republican administration has created *more* government instead of less, which is the Republican philosophy.  And although they aren't "taxing" (but are in fact giving tax rebates), the are spending trillions of borrowed money we will have to repay with interest, just to fund this war.

If tax and spend liberalism is a danger, don't tax and do spend is a worse combination, especially when mixed with cronyism and suppression of civil rights.

BTW, Obama does indeed have a website for squashing all of these stupid rumors.  It is: ttp://my.barackobama.com/page/content/fightthesmearshome/

or: http://www.fightthesmears.com
which will lead you to the link above.
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Edvaard

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Re: "Bush Administration Committed War Crimes"- Gen. Taguba, U.S.
« Reply #18 on: June 19, 2008, 03:46:44 pm »

Barry Hufker wrote on Wed, 18 June 2008 21:56

Ah.  Here's the quote of the day:

  ... terterrorism lawyer Jonathan Fredman told a group of military and intelligence officials ...  “If the detainee dies, you’re doing it wrong.”






They just don't make detainees like they used to.




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rankus

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Re: "Bush Administration Committed War Crimes"- Gen. Taguba, U.S.
« Reply #19 on: June 19, 2008, 03:55:39 pm »



The problem is that it is the losers that get tried for war crimes... Probably the best (only?) reason for staying in the war from the admins perspective.

As long as they don't lose the war.....


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Barry Hufker

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Re: "Bush Administration Committed War Crimes"- Gen. Taguba, U.S.
« Reply #20 on: June 19, 2008, 04:14:33 pm »

Well I knew this when I posted but I can dream.  I just checked to make sure, the U.S. and China (now there's a pair)are not members of the International Criminal Court.  That's because they both promote freedom and peace so well.
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RSettee

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Re: "Bush Administration Committed War Crimes"- Gen. Taguba, U.S.
« Reply #21 on: June 19, 2008, 06:56:36 pm »

Barry Hufker wrote on Wed, 18 June 2008 20:51

I'm afraid you're right about the repetition of a destructive cycle the U.S. inflicts on the world - and itself.

At this time, unlike Vietnam in the 70s, the general public couldn't care less.  There is no draft so no one is afraid of being called up to fight this war.  The war is in an "unseen" country fought by our "unseen" troops (although we all see these "I support the troops" stickers everywhere) with "unseen" casualties.  In the U.S., if it isn't in your face it doesn't exist.  So the government can do what it wants.  And it does.


If I was American, I would have quit the army. Or found any way possible to get out of it. What a waste of time and money. Think of all the soldiers that are still over there, that want to go home. Lenny Kravitz addressed this best on his new one--with "Back In Vietnam" and "I Wanna Go Home".

As i've said before, in 10-20 years, we'll be seeing a large portion of children that will have a thorough hatred for George W. Bush for not having a father when growing up...because they were serving in the army. Bookmark this message and check back in 10-20 years....I guarantee this will happen.

Thanks for ruining thousands of childrens' lives, Bush. Those with deceased dads, or those that have never got back to see their children since 2001--other than postcards and phone calls and videos maybe. What Bush has done is essentially forced thousands (tens of thousands?) of children to grow up in a one parent family.

That's GOTTA have some long term percussions.
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RSettee

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Re: "Bush Administration Committed War Crimes"- Gen. Taguba, U.S.
« Reply #22 on: June 19, 2008, 07:10:41 pm »

mgod wrote on Thu, 19 June 2008 15:54


In the modern US, the market rules all. And I mean ALL.

(snip)

But criminal behavior at the highest levels is an acceptable fact now here, as long as it doesn't interfere with profits.

DS


NFK, man. I totally agree. What i've always had a problem with is how illegality can slip through the cracks or be ignored or willfully and purposely be covered up. It's all to do with power. Think of it, if you're complicit in knowledge that you know is wrong, and you're high up the ladder, what are you gonna do? Rat out? Probably not. At best, you'd probably plead ignorance.

The ones that are in power are greedy, and the ones that stand to be next in line for that power--or are a major part in the power scheme towards or near the top--are just as greedy. The last thing they're gonna do is ruffle feathers and do what's "proper". I've seen companies let workers get away with tons of shit that's wrong on a smaller level. And that's just your run of the mill, basic company that has nothing to do with government politics! Transpose that to the government and multiply it by numerous times the money, powerm prestige and control, and you've got a serious problem.

Politics and politicians make me ashamed to be a part of the human race. So many of them use and abuse it to facilitate their needs and what benefits them the most. And I don't trust any of 'em....their smokestacks, their nuclear energy, their promises, their genetically modified seeds and growth hormones in meats. The ironic part is that they're only leaving that mess for their children, and their children's progeny.

THAT is a scary thought. They don't even care enough to leave a world for their kids that can sustain itself. They only care about what they see, what they do, what they know. They're not the ones that have to stick around long enough to care or fix the long term problems to their short term high yields, record profits and mass automation at any cost, by polluting and putting skilled workers out of jobs for automation and assembly line robots. Just like Bush, he's not the one that has to clean up his own shit....it's left for the next generation, the next administration, the next person.
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Barry Hufker

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Re: "Bush Administration Committed War Crimes"- Gen. Taguba, U.S.
« Reply #23 on: June 19, 2008, 11:45:17 pm »

Staying in the army.  The number of self-inflicted wounds is soaring as soldiers don't want to return to Iraq for another tour of duty.  The rate of suicides is high...

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Daniel Farris

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Re: "Bush Administration Committed War Crimes"- Gen. Taguba, U.S.
« Reply #24 on: June 20, 2008, 11:45:05 am »

rankus wrote on Thu, 19 June 2008 12:55

The problem is that it is the losers that get tried for war crimes... Probably the best (only?) reason for staying in the war from the admins perspective.

As long as they don't lose the war.....


In *this* war, finding a definition for victory is hard enough. I can't imagine having to come up with a definition for defeat.

DF
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rankus

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Re: "Bush Administration Committed War Crimes"- Gen. Taguba, U.S.
« Reply #25 on: June 20, 2008, 01:54:09 pm »

Daniel Farris wrote on Fri, 20 June 2008 08:45

rankus wrote on Thu, 19 June 2008 12:55

The problem is that it is the losers that get tried for war crimes... Probably the best (only?) reason for staying in the war from the admins perspective.

As long as they don't lose the war.....


In *this* war, finding a definition for victory is hard enough. I can't imagine having to come up with a definition for defeat.

DF



I was thinking about that myself as I posted that comment.  How would we define a "loss" and if so who would actually be the "winners"  (other than the soldiers that get to come home as noted above... sad)

I can't believe the Supreme Court hasn't brought charges against the admin.  Hopefully they will after the election?

Is there any US body that has enough clout to "get these guys"?

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mgod

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Re: "Bush Administration Committed War Crimes"- Gen. Taguba, U.S.
« Reply #26 on: June 20, 2008, 02:04:06 pm »

rankus wrote on Fri, 20 June 2008 10:54

I can't believe the Supreme Court hasn't brought charges against the admin.  Hopefully they will after the election?

Laughing Laughing  Laughing Laughing  Laughing  Laughing  Laughing  Laughing  Laughing

Funny guy. Of course, you can laugh at us - you're in Canada. But just you wait. You're next. The dominos of indepedent government are falling.

rankus wrote on Fri, 20 June 2008 10:54


Is there any US body that has enough clout to "get these guys"?

Yes - Halliburton, Exxon/Mobil and Merck. But why would they?

DS


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Barry Hufker

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Re: "Bush Administration Committed War Crimes"- Gen. Taguba, U.S.
« Reply #27 on: June 20, 2008, 03:20:47 pm »

Bush will find a way to declare some sort of victory in Iraq before he leaves office.  There is no "winning" as the situation is too complex.  There is no "losing" as their is nothing to win.  We have the government.  Traditionally that's "winning" but this is indeed like Vietnam.  The most you can do is stay even with the enemy.  It is a civil war now.  Various Iraqi factions can win amongst themselves by grabbing power but we can't.  Iraqis don't want us there.  Once we leave, all hell will break loose.  Al Qaida will be defeated and some warlord will grab the government.

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RSettee

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Re: "Bush Administration Committed War Crimes"- Gen. Taguba, U.S.
« Reply #28 on: June 22, 2008, 03:42:24 am »

Barry Hufker wrote on Fri, 20 June 2008 14:20

Bush will find a way to declare some sort of victory in Iraq before he leaves office.  There is no "winning" as the situation is too complex.  There is no "losing" as their is nothing to win.  We have the government.  Traditionally that's "winning" but this is indeed like Vietnam.  The most you can do is stay even with the enemy.  It is a civil war now.  Various Iraqi factions can win amongst themselves by grabbing power but we can't.  Iraqis don't want us there.  Once we leave, all hell will break loose.  Al Qaida will be defeated and some warlord will grab the government.




I have to say Barry, that in the Saloon, you're definetely the most level headed guy in here. It's too bad that guys like you don't run for office....but then again, the good guys never run, anyways....those that did have good intentions realize quickly that they either have to erode and shave away morals and ideals to win and appease those that helped you win (ie: sponsors, backers and donors for political campaigns likely have their "concerns" seen to....), or their support and shot at winning the office is done. And/ or their shot at being re-elected is done. I could never live with myself, making decisions based on that, rather than doing the proper and ethical thing.

But if you think of it, for every "right", there's a "wrong".....if you put more cops on the streets, the public likes you but the criminals hate you. If you lower gas prices, the consumers like you but OPEC and the oil companies hate you. If you lean to the left, the left side likes you but the right side hates you and vice versa. I wouldn't want to be in office or control, just based on the fact that you have to smooth out the differences and problems between two sides, and you can't really please both sides, you have to basically pick one, anyways.
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Barry Hufker

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Re: "Bush Administration Committed War Crimes"- Gen. Taguba, U.S.
« Reply #29 on: June 22, 2008, 01:49:22 pm »

Ryan, you have given me much too nice a compliment.  But I thank you for it.  I realize I would be so bad at handling power (alternating manically between not managing at all to starting my own torture camps).  I'm so bad at power that I've never even nominated myself for department chair at my school.  I know it would be utter chaos.  But at least I see that and George Bush never did about himself, so I can at least feel superior even if I wouldn't be superior.

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