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Author Topic: IMP18 discussion  (Read 9761 times)

ATOR

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Re: IMP18 discussion
« Reply #45 on: June 14, 2008, 12:11:04 pm »

Antman wrote on Sat, 14 June 2008 17:15

ATOR wrote on Sat, 14 June 2008 23:04

This is what came to mind when listening to the mixes.


Antman
Nice acoustic guitar at intro. Vocals doubling is overdone. Bass is like a ghost. Vocal is buried at times. A very gentle mix. Choir is very loud. The guitars at the end make a mess.



Could you explain what you mean by vocals doubling? What's that? And in what sense is the bass like a ghost? I actually thought the bass was a little overbearing, especially when I listened to everyone elses mix, so a little more elaboration on those two points would be greatly appreciated.



The bass is cloudy, without presence. Adding more mids and or harmonics makes it easier to hear the bass as an instrument instead of just a bunch of low frequencies.

Doubling is using a short delay or different take to duplicate the lead vocal without having it sound like two vocalists. Your lead vocal sometimes sounds like two singers panned at either side and for this song I'd like a single centered guy better.


These are points I would change but it's mostly a matter of taste. I liked this song to be intimate so I went for a centered vocal and a focussed bass. I did double the leadvocal in the chorus with vocals from the other chorusses but just a little to thicken it up.
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Antman

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Re: IMP18 discussion
« Reply #46 on: June 14, 2008, 02:16:18 pm »

Hmm interesting. Nothing I did I did with the intention of doubling the vocals, so it must be the result of accidentally misusing a technique... In fact I wanted to keep a centre focus with the vocals too...

I hear what you mean about the bass now, thanks.
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Greg Thompson

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Re: IMP18 discussion
« Reply #47 on: June 14, 2008, 02:25:50 pm »

Few random thoughts here to share:

Chris Illet:  When I listened to your mp3 it was dead mono and pretty low resolution sounding.  Perhaps you can take a look at your mp3 encoder settings and see if that didn't screw with your mix more than you think.
But hey, now you know how other engineers feel when somebody monos up their mix and squashes it with an mp3 encoder!

Regarding arrangements and edits:  I did a few edits here and there, mostly as what I would call triage(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triage).
I found a bar of the shaker/cabasa thing that didn't offend and then looped it for the song, then dropped back in the spots where it did its little fills.  Did some beat detection/time alignment with the bass/drums/clave at the end, where they all ritard slightly but not together.  
I didn't think the song needed too much editing, and its my opinion that for a first time mix, one shouldn't really be asked to rearrange the parts to create a workable arrangement.  If you're submitting tracks to me to be mixed, you're submitting stuff in the arrangement that you like, and you want them mixed like that.  However as an arrangement decision I did mute the repeating acoustic guitar part when the electrics came back in to prevent the song from getting too busy at that point.

regarding the guitar "solo":  I thought about fixing some of the clams in there, but that smacked of effort and would have taken time away from fixing other things.  Also, I figured if somebody had left that there as a final track, then somebody in the band must have loved that part and would have been upset if I took it out.  
Also, that single line part basically defined the approach I took to the mix.  I heard it and said, "well the only way this is going to work is if I drench it in a springy reverb" and that led to other FX used elsewhere.

the bass track:  This is a candidate for explaining why you should always record a Bass DI track even if it's not in vogue these days.  I probably spent the most time in the mix trying to make that bass track work.  

Great sounding vocal.  What was the mic again?

The MS guitar?  Great idea.. I immediately turned off the side tracks cause it sounded too "headcavey" for me to use.  I prefer a single acoustic guitar to be a mono instrument.  If I want stereo, then I double it or do something else.

The drums...  What was the intention here?  2 separate takes and picking and choosing the best parts?  I just went with kit #2 and did a stereo panning thing.  I was kinda disappointed that there wasn't any spot mics on the bass drum and floor tom/cymbal thing.  I guess limitations can be good, but my first impression of hearing those tracks was not one of joy.
Also, did you move the mics around between take 1 and 2 of the drums?


anyway, thanks for posting this, I had a lot of fun mixing it.

Greg
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fiasco ( P.M.DuMont )

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Re: IMP18 discussion
« Reply #48 on: June 14, 2008, 02:41:34 pm »

ATOR wrote on Sat, 14 June 2008 11:04

This is what came to mind when listening to the mixes.

Fiasco
Low end is boomy, uncontrolled and too loud, this drowns the mix. And then at 3:30 it disappears. I listened to this mix without hearing the song, that's not a good sign.




Odd... I check the mix on several systems and didn't notice the low end being problematic.
Definitely not as focused as I would like, but didn't seem boomy.

Quote:

I listened to this mix without hearing the song, that's not a good sign.


Not sure what that means. Could you elaborate?

Thanks for the critique.
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M Carter

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Re: IMP18 discussion
« Reply #49 on: June 14, 2008, 02:45:57 pm »

Here's where I'm at so far...

J. Hall -  The guitar sounds great.  This is one of the few mixes that wasn't scared of the bass guitar, which I like about it. Drums feel really left heavy, which kind of takes me out of the song.  The drums SOUND great, i just wish both sides had that balls. Nice work keeping the energy up post bridge, that was tough to do.

Greg dixon - great mix.  The guitar 'solo' on the right is a little loud with nothing else going on on left side though. Occasionally the vocal jumps out at me, but generally this mix sounds dictated by the song, which is great. Piano could come down a notch though.

Antman - Vocals sound great.  You kind of wimped out on the drums for my tastes.  Guitars sound great though.  Vox in bridge are a little loud.  Piano has a nice quality to it. Nice backgrounds too.  All I want are more drums!  

Slash - The lack of drums doesn't work for me.  It makes it have kind of a 'demo' quality.  the elements you DID use, sound really great though.  I'm glad to see that someone else used the backgrounds more than once, although harmonically the placement is a little weird sometimes.


ATOR -  Not enough enough low end in the mix over all for me.  Bold move on the distorted guitar, I like the idea, but the vocal ambience doesn't seem on the same page.  Nice subtle use of the beat boxing (which I basically chucked out the window).  Nice edits.  My one really big gripe is that the kick drum sounds like it came off of an Alesis SR16.  Piano comes in nice.  In short, I love the direction of it, but it could be refined a bit.

Teleric - The left-heavy drums throw me.  The vocal is a bit too loud in relation to the music, it makes me afraid to turn the volume up.  Good mix, I just want more vibe out of it.

Daniel Farris - This one has something I really like  - it's not all "in your face".  I think it could benefit from a little 'clean up' in mastering.  So far I think this wins as my favorite.  You weren't afraid of the bass, I like it.

Sing Sing - I like the idea of the piano in the chorus, but I can't really grasp it in the context of the music.  This one 'had me at hello' and then lost me at the guitar solo.  The rhythm section sounds great, and I like where the vocal sits.  Over all, some good stuff going on in this one.  

Osumosan - You killed parts of this mix.  My only issue with this mix is that the whole mix feels very mono until the bridge.   I like a lot of the sounds, I just wish it felt BIGGEr.

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Matt Carter
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Antman

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Re: IMP18 discussion
« Reply #50 on: June 14, 2008, 02:56:49 pm »

M Carter wrote on Sun, 15 June 2008 02:45


Antman - Vocals sound great.  You kind of wimped out on the drums for my tastes.  Guitars sound great though.  Vox in bridge are a little loud.  Piano has a nice quality to it. Nice backgrounds too.  All I want are more drums!  



Thanks,

Haha, as a drummer, i was particularly allergic to the drums on this track, and nearly muted them altogether, but found I liked them when used to add rhythm in a more covert manner, especially that kick drum just there throughout the song beating out the pulse, with most of it's energy focused into a wide low end sort of sound and not a lot of attack.
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Huds

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Re: IMP18 discussion
« Reply #51 on: June 14, 2008, 10:41:43 pm »

Not sure what you mean by "shifted acoustic"... I used the center AG and brought the sides up just a hair to give it space. I didn't move/shift anything.... on purpose that is - I have been know to fat-finger edits in the past Smile



ATOR wrote on Sat, 14 June 2008 11:04

This is what came to mind when listening to the mixes.

Huds
Balance could use more tweaking/automation. I don't like the shifted acoustic, the idea is ok but if you do it time it right. My attention gets drawn to the wrong parts like eg the beatbox in the bridge and the acoustic guitar. The vocal needs to be in the spotlight.



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southboundloco

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Re: IMP18 discussion
« Reply #52 on: June 15, 2008, 07:25:38 am »

arrrrrgggghhh!!!!!....bloody elastic audio fucked up the songs tempo on my mix...oh well at least we know its good at what it does hehe Laughing   Laughing
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mdifazio

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Re: IMP18 discussion
« Reply #53 on: June 15, 2008, 10:28:12 pm »

ATOR wrote on Sat, 14 June 2008 10:04


Mdifazio
Aah, the old I thought it was 44k mix. It's a regular here  Smile



Hey, I would much appreciate someone spot double checking this.  First thing I did was check the readme and my Logic project shows 48k.  Also it sounds like same tempo as others and beatmap shows 89 +/-.

Thanks,

Matt
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M.Difazio
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Greg Dixon

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Re: IMP18 discussion
« Reply #54 on: June 15, 2008, 10:36:14 pm »

mdifazio wrote on Mon, 16 June 2008 12:28

ATOR wrote on Sat, 14 June 2008 10:04


Mdifazio
Aah, the old I thought it was 44k mix. It's a regular here  Smile



Hey, I would much appreciate someone spot double checking this.  First thing I did was check the readme and my Logic project shows 48k.  Also it sounds like same tempo as others and beatmap shows 89 +/-.

Thanks,

Matt


No problem here Matt. Sounds fine.
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Strummer

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Re: IMP18 discussion
« Reply #55 on: June 15, 2008, 10:43:53 pm »

Greg Dixon wrote on Sun, 15 June 2008 22:36

mdifazio wrote on Mon, 16 June 2008 12:28

ATOR wrote on Sat, 14 June 2008 10:04


Mdifazio
Aah, the old I thought it was 44k mix. It's a regular here  Smile



Hey, I would much appreciate someone spot double checking this.  First thing I did was check the readme and my Logic project shows 48k.  Also it sounds like same tempo as others and beatmap shows 89 +/-.

Thanks,

Matt


No problem here Matt. Sounds fine.


Here too.

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mdifazio

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Re: IMP18 discussion
« Reply #56 on: June 15, 2008, 10:51:43 pm »

Thanks guys,

It was an interesting position to be in... out of town... wedding reception... check the old iPhone... (?) ...  stuck on the plane all day...

You know it is just a frivolous thing, but you sort of fall in love with these songs as you mix them...  Wink

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M.Difazio
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osumosan

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IMP Impressions
« Reply #57 on: June 16, 2008, 10:23:38 am »

JHall - Satisfying lowend as usual. Electric guitar delay is distracting at the noodle section. Re: the bit crushing on the beatbox: I can't say if it adds a nice texture or just sounds like insects eating. I agree with the intimate and dry vocal treatment and the best thing is how the acoustics all come together at the onset of the bridge.

Greg Dixon - Lots of motion and wideness. The onset of the bridge after chorus seems to stall. Is that due to an edit?

Antman - Subtle chorusing on vox - cool, drops the bottom a bit though. ElecGuitars are sounding a bit direct. In general I'd be against added disto. I like the crisp acoustic guitar treatment. The end has a good velocity to it. The performances couldn't hold it up though and it starts to get chaotic.

Slash 5969 - Acoustic is a bit over de-noised and sounds constricted. Where's the line buzz coming from? The mix is very gentle, so the really close intimate vox seems out of place, although conceptually, that would be hard to predict. All of a sudden I find myself wishing that somebody had added pseudo vinyl noise to this. Probably because this treatment seems very 70s to me.

Chris Ilett - I can't reconcile these vox with reverb. To have intimacy and spaciousness distracts me. I'd love to hear them where the electrics are just to see what happens. Drums are a bit ponderous. Did you leave out the bridge guitars on purpose, too? The electrics at the end are lost. I think your beatbox treatment works best so far.

ATOR - Nice ideas, but now we need the drummer to come back and kick in at certain points. Are you a child of the 80s by any chance? If so, your services are in demand at the moment. I think all your choices are really cool if not a little self-conscious. The drums actually have a very Beck-ish feel to them.

Teleric -  Good balance for intimacy. Forceful yet restrained (or is that the description for the wine I'm driking right now?) The rhythm section really holds the hypnotic bottom here and gets tucked away nicely into the subconscious after a while.

Daniel Farris -  Whoa! Cave singing? Something that drastic should be a little bit more out-of-the-ordinary. Instrumentation gets a little cottony. Hooray on the fade-out that I wish I had done.

SingSing - Very very cool effect at the front and that space you create does go well with and holds up to the intimacy. Very good editing and I like the stripping away to end the song. I might search around a wee bit for alternative disto guitar fills.

Greg Thompson - The Blue Velvet mix. I'd automate the verb to ramp up. It seems extreme at the beginning. The mix asks for a more dramatic drum onset.

Martthie - Acoustic is too big. Sounds angry. And then the bass kind of squeaks in. It's a cool sound but isn't holding up and shirks it's low end duties.

Rankus - Would like to hear more drums here. Or vox is just a bit too dominant. The only part where the total strip down lags is when the beatbox comes in. That section becomes too long.

Huds - Drums are practically invisible. From the bridge on the mix holds very well. I like the beatbox treatment and would like to hear more of it if not just brought down as it goes on.

MGAudio - Lofi! Who's cooking bacon in the background, though? The vox is disembodied. Why not give it the same treatment since now it's carrying the low end? The tambourine a bit shrewish on the high end.

dconstruction - You DO like wet vocals. The mix sounds like it's at a soundcheck though and a couple sibilances could be tamed. Then it seems blown out when the piano comes in, but has a great build with a lovely cacophony at the end.

Strummer - Good idea with the Beatles/Queen intro, but the whole mix pales against it and I'm not sure repeating at the end really makes sense, although it's not unexpected. Just turn down the BGvox. Your vox track should be on MGAudio's mix. This is on the lofi side, too, but it seems constrained. It needs to open up, especially the low end.

Fiasco - This seems like the perfect amount of wet for the vox. The mix has a nice space and fills up the sonic spectrum in a very satisfying way. Strange choices at the end.

TheDan - The only mix I turned down before the guitar even started. The hiss scared me! The treatment of the electric ditty is a bit distracting from the vox. There are some peaks in the high end that could be tamed there. The mix has good clarity but maybe overmastered.

imrecordings - Nice short space on the vox. There's something cool about the drums on the left, but I can't put my finger on it. Another short room? The piano arpeggios and claves stick out a tad. This is a successful merging of reverbs and intimacy. Nothing seems out of place which I think was the shorcoming of a lot of mixes.

Firefly - Nice bottom on the vox. All around, too. one of the best controlled basses of this bunch.

Southboundloco- Artifacts all over the place! This is definitely loco. I don't think slowing it down did it any good. Generally one might do this if you wanted to accentuate spaces and give it some cool air, but it's just slow.

Maxim - Fearless use of reverb on the bass! Generally a nice cutup that enhances the multifaceted arrangement. The use of the electric guitar is a bit random throughout and is calling attention to itself at the expense of the vox. The timing is actually off at the end.

MCarter - Bass a bit over the edge. But consistent. Very nice build. The BG vox repetition ads a cool harmonic. This mix compression highlights the air around everything. It made my monitors seem bigger than they are. The stoner mix for sure.

mdifazio - The intro is like a Cocteau twins mix. The trasition between wet and dry is a bit shocking, though and the vox is a bit overpowering. I would have loved to hear the spacious mix throughout.
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dconstruction

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Re: IMP18 discussion
« Reply #58 on: June 16, 2008, 10:31:22 am »

Greg Thompson wrote on Sat, 14 June 2008 13:25


the bass track:  This is a candidate for explaining why you should always record a Bass DI track even if it's not in vogue these days.  I probably spent the most time in the mix trying to make that bass track work.


I'd probably agree.  We'll be revisiting the bass on this track.

Greg Thompson wrote on Sat, 14 June 2008 13:25

Great sounding vocal.  What was the mic again?


Lawson L47FET http://www.lawsonmicrophones.com/l47fet.html

Greg Thompson wrote on Sat, 14 June 2008 13:25

The drums...  What was the intention here?


I was hearing two kits, left and right.  If, when mixing, the flamming got too bad, I'd either fix or punt.  And no, I did not move the mics around (though the drummer might have!); I think the second take is just more authoritative and secure.

Greg Thompson wrote on Sat, 14 June 2008 13:25

anyway, thanks for posting this, I had a lot of fun mixing it.

Greg


You are welcome!  I had a lot of fun having you mix it!

L
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dconstruction

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Re: IMP Impressions
« Reply #59 on: June 16, 2008, 10:37:19 am »

osumosan wrote on Mon, 16 June 2008 09:23


dconstruction - You DO like wet vocals. The mix sounds like it's at a soundcheck though and a couple sibilances could be tamed. Then it seems blown out when the piano comes in, but has a great build with a lovely cacophony at the end.


Thanks for the critique.  I guess I do like wet vocals (on this song).  Though, I'll admit, hearing them so dry over and over has got me thinking.  Sibilance is indeed a problem.  Just not one I got to at the end of the day when tracking.

Cacophony.  Yeah.  I do that.

L
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