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Author Topic: The New Modified C12-VR Thread, At Last  (Read 39294 times)

Billy Yates

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Re: The New Modified C12-VR Thread, At Last
« Reply #15 on: June 14, 2008, 11:06:09 AM »

And here is the Ela M251 schematic. You can see that the cathode of the C12 is tied directly to ground, and the 251 used a cathode bias resistor and bypass cap. The circuits are similar but very different. Regardless of which circuit Oliver used in Terry's mic, I am positive it sounds terrific and way beyond the performance of the dismal VR.
It is my understanding that the Ela M251 was designed for Broadcast use and it's design was based on the C12 but quieter.
Am I correct on this? Which one is the better mic? What capsule does the 251 use?
Cherry pie or Rhubarb pie...
Billy Yatesindex.php/fa/9153/0/
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Billy Yates
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"Mix? What mix? Oh, that mix...it's easy!
Because it's all Digital, the only thing you have to do is pour a bunch of zero's and one's into a blender and push "mix". Then, you pray."

marcel

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Re: The New Modified C12-VR Thread, At Last
« Reply #16 on: June 15, 2008, 04:59:08 PM »

Calling that a modified VR is like calling a Porsche 911 a modified VW bug.

Let's see...  The only VR part remaining is the (refinished) body.  Sounds like Jeff R. even brazed over the VR designation, so...

Can't wait to hear how it sounds, tho.  I'm starting to think we should all stop complaining about the poor quality (or conversely, the high price of good quality) of modern mics, and get busy organizing the manufacture of well-designed retrofit microphones.

An addition/supplement to the TnC line, maybe?  
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Best, Marcel

Brian Kehew

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Re: The New Modified C12-VR Thread, At Last
« Reply #17 on: June 15, 2008, 08:01:20 PM »

Can you add an effects loop in there?
(HAS to be tube, so I can get "my tone")
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Relax and float downstream...

ssltech

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Re: The New Modified C12-VR Thread, At Last
« Reply #18 on: June 16, 2008, 09:35:23 AM »

marcel wrote

Calling that a modified VR is like calling a Porsche 911 a modified VW bug.


Make that number 912 and I'd argue that it really IS little more than a modified VW bug! Wink

http://www.leblogauto.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/11/joest_jo_ouaknine/Porsche_912_e.jpg
(click picture for more info)

Keith
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MDM (maxdimario) wrote on Fri, 16 November 2007 21:36

I have the feeling that I have more experience in my little finger than you do in your whole body about audio electronics..

MDM,

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Re: The New Modified C12-VR Thread, At Last
« Reply #19 on: June 16, 2008, 09:44:47 AM »

Maybe Oliver can start making them himself, so that they start out modified to begin with..
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ssltech

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Re: The New Modified C12-VR Thread, At Last
« Reply #20 on: June 16, 2008, 01:01:27 PM »

MagnetoSound wrote

compasspnt wrote


Indeed.  Oliver had an old one from a C-12, so we put the GOLD one to work as a strainer for tea bags.


Does it let the flava flood out?


Well, also like Most Porsche 912s, it has about two thousand perforations...

Very Happy

(Voice-Over courtesy of mr. Brian Glover...)

Keith
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MDM (maxdimario) wrote on Fri, 16 November 2007 21:36

I have the feeling that I have more experience in my little finger than you do in your whole body about audio electronics..

seedyunderbelly.com

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Re: The New Modified C12-VR Thread, At Last
« Reply #21 on: June 16, 2008, 03:40:01 PM »

compasspnt wrote on Thu, 12 June 2008 06:54

J.J. Blair wrote on Thu, 12 June 2008 06:28

Terry, that's not the original grill.  Where'd you get that one?



Indeed.  Oliver had an old one from a C-12, so we put the GOLD one to work as a strainer for tea bags.




Be careful that the  Gold does not get into your Tea, and 'in ya mind and make you Crazy!

Oliver Archut

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Re: The New Modified C12-VR Thread, At Last
« Reply #22 on: June 28, 2008, 03:16:04 PM »

Hello Guys,

Sorry for being that late, but currently I am limping behind because of too much work and not enough time for fun things.

Regarding your questions, the circuit is a modified version of a
classic C12, with a few improvements in noise and depth. There are forums to be filled with opinions about what is the best, all original or implementing better parts and circuit to get less noise and more tonal quality.  But here is something to try.

The bias of the classic C12 was done pretty cheap with adding a bunch of noise via a negative dropping resistor of the main supply; to implement this type of bias, a major modification would have been necessary.

Also with that style of fixed bias there is no way to bias the tube properly, so only with a selected tube two mics would sound the same. In the end the fixed bias sounds pretty dark with most CK12 capsules.

Changing it over to cathode bias with a bypass cap decreases the noise floor, makes the mic less sensitive to the tube used, and opens the door for individual fine tuning, capsule to circuit.
Just by playing with the value of the cathode resistor and cap, it is pretty easy to find the sweet spot of that particular capsule/tube/x-former.

The setup of the capsules for remote control done in the historic AKG way is a bit noisier than the Grosskopf style remote, and the coupling cap before the grid is quite complicated with reference to sound. So I chose the M49 remote developed by Mr. Grosskopf; in a way this VR is a C12/M49c hybrid, retaining the sound of a classic C12 with the noise figures of an M49c.

Rating that project on a scale of 10 to 1, this is definitely a full 10 with reference to difficulty; and taking the cost and time in account, not the average DIY project. For everyone that is brave or insane enough, attached you find the schematics with parts list. I will try to get a PCB layout done that I can upload in a form of a jpg. I still do all my designs and PCB analog, but layout and most of all assembly is curtail to get a good sounding mic.

All parts needed are available online. Ohmite makes the best high impedance resistors, caps is matter of taste, resistors are metal film, the Teflon standoffs are hard to find.  The Hiller style T14 that my company makes is available via Mercenary. Most important: "I do not offer a C12VR mod, so do not send me your mics!" I talked with Terry to assist him to come up with an out of box C12VR modded mic.  

Best regards,

index.php/fa/9331/0/
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compasspnt

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Re: The New Modified C12-VR Thread, At Last
« Reply #23 on: June 28, 2008, 04:26:52 PM »

Really, really great Oliver!  Thanks for posting this (not to mention working with me on this microphone!)  I'm sure several people will be crazy enough to try it though!

I can't wait to get this back here and see how it sounds, and how it records.  The work is absolutely beautiful. (Am emailing you.)

And I will say again that Oliver has been kind enough to help guide us in trying to put together a simple, classic-sounding mic that won't break the bank.  It will be a while though.
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Barry Hufker

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Re: The New Modified C12-VR Thread, At Last
« Reply #24 on: June 28, 2008, 06:02:39 PM »

For those who would like a complete service manual for their C12VR, you can find one here: http://www.sdiy.org/oid/mics.html#akg

And if you look at the site, you'll find many other microphone schematics.

Barry
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seedyunderbelly.com

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Re: The New Modified C12-VR Thread, At Last
« Reply #25 on: June 29, 2008, 01:17:56 PM »

Terry,  When will you put it through the paces?!

Exciting stuff-j

compasspnt

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Re: The New Modified C12-VR Thread, At Last
« Reply #26 on: June 29, 2008, 03:09:15 PM »

You wouldn't believe my schedule...

But I will be able to collect the microphone in late July, and have it back here to use it in August.
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MDM,

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Re: The New Modified C12-VR Thread, At Last
« Reply #27 on: June 29, 2008, 03:58:10 PM »

I'm sure it's going to sound excellent.

very simple basic amp..

one active component

no feedback loops in the circuitry

you may want to add the largest film cap you can parallel to the 50 uF cathode cap.. for more detailed highs, especially in the next few years
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I must study politics and war that my sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy .. in order to give their children a right to study painting, poetry and music.
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J.J. Blair

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Re: The New Modified C12-VR Thread, At Last
« Reply #28 on: June 29, 2008, 11:21:59 PM »

I believe it's 50 nF, not 50
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seedyunderbelly.com

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Re: The New Modified C12-VR Thread, At Last
« Reply #29 on: June 30, 2008, 10:04:47 AM »

compasspnt wrote on Sun, 29 June 2008 14:09

You wouldn't believe my schedule...

But I will be able to collect the microphone in late July, and have it back here to use it in August.



Wowee Zowee,   That's great,  I hope that you are having some fun inside and around that schedule!
It will be interesting to hear what you hear.   -j

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