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Author Topic: Advise from serious proes regarding PT + 02R 96  (Read 5742 times)

Alécio Costa - Brazil

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Advise from serious proes regarding PT + 02R 96
« on: May 30, 2004, 02:05:33 pm »

Hi friends,
I am an old user of the o2R V2+ Pt Mix PLus.
In terms of sound quality and features, will I have a big leap if I upgrade my 02R V2to the 02R 96k, keeping my Mix Plus system? Can we finally trust in those digital compressors?
Would it be better to skip the board upgrade and go directly to PT HD Accel2?
No budget to upgrade everything.
Thanks for any info
Nice week
Razz
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Alécio Costa Studio
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Daniel_Dettwiler

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Re: Advise from serious proes regarding PT + 02R 96
« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2004, 07:02:06 pm »

Quote:

Would it be better to skip the board upgrade and go directly to PT HD Accel2?
No budget to upgrade everything.



If you don't want the board for economic reason then definitly a big big yes! Forget the board and go to PT Accel, get Oxford EQ's (or GML) and Oxford Comp and you are way above the quality you'd ever get out of the Yammie Desk... (imo)

Daniel
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George Massenburg

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Re: Advise from serious proes regarding PT + 02R 96
« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2004, 09:15:46 pm »

I don't think there's any reason to buy an Yamaha-anything anymore.  They cherry-pick ideas, they do not respond to their customers (everything comes out of Japan...every decision, every product) and they do not stick with their products.

From what I know about the O2R96, I barely know where to start; their interface is egregiously inaccurate and slow,   How about that?

Sorry I'm just not a Yamaha lover anymore.

George
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Alécio Costa - Brazil

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Re: Advise from serious proes regarding PT + 02R 96
« Reply #3 on: May 31, 2004, 12:34:21 am »

OK. .Thanks
You are right, George. Here in Brazil Yamaha TOTALLY SUCKS. My 02R has the enter button damaged, I have been waiting over 6 months for the parts. Pretty good tech support indeed..
However, it interfaces pretty easily with PT.
Nice week
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Alécio Costa Studio
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Zoesch

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Re: Advise from serious proes regarding PT + 02R 96
« Reply #4 on: May 31, 2004, 01:18:10 am »

Alecio...

1)What improvement would you gain from upgrading to an O2R96 if your DAW is limited to 48KHz? (Possible answers: Improved EQ algorithms, improved pres, future proof?)
2)What improvements would you gain from upgrading your DAW if your console is limited to 48KHz? (Possible answers: Improved summing, ADC, improved environment, future proof)

Both upgrades in themselves are pretty useless...

I assume you are using your 02R to supply pres and monitoring... so with that in mind, what about moving to HD Accel cards, keeping your current I/O and O2R until you can upgrade the I/O to a good third party system (I personally wouldn't waste a dime on the HD I/O boxes) and maybe a better console (Analog or digital)?
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Alécio Costa - Brazil

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Re: Advise from serious proes regarding PT + 02R 96
« Reply #5 on: May 31, 2004, 12:30:28 pm »

Thanks Zoesch,

in fact 96k is not that really important to me at least in the folowing couple of years.
I was thinking of the 02r 96k so as to have a better a/d and multiple mic pres, once in a while I record big stuff like orchestras and horn bands, yes all in a limited budget. Sad
. I think that if I keep the old 02R v2 and just change the digi stuff, flavours will be the same. To me it seems the a/d is the weakest point in my chain at present moment. I use some Sebatron mic pres, which are much better than the old 02R pres.
Any other opinions?
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Alécio Costa Studio
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Chris Nicolaides

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Re: Advise from serious proes regarding PT + 02R 96
« Reply #6 on: June 01, 2004, 06:47:12 am »

Hi guys,

Well, I remember being the one that triggered a very unflattering response by George to the old Yamaha 02R about 3 years ago on the musicplayer forum! I had made the switch from an 02R to a Mackie d8b and noticed a significant improvement sonically as well as ergonomically. However, after too many unresolved issues (bugs) with the d8b, and questionable build quality, I made the switch, with some trepidation, back to the Yamaha camp with the small DM1000.

Ergonomically, I miss the d8b, but sonically, Yamaha have made a BIG improvement, especially the converters and Mic Pres. When I played an old mix through the DM1000, it sounded so different, and then I realised I was hearing details that were inaudible on the d8b due to its poor D/A converters, which is why many users bought Benchmark DACs!

I was almost going to go back to a small analogue mixer, but I'm glad I chose the DM1000. To get converters/mic pres of this quality along with all the other functions would have cost a lot more had I gone a different route. Interestingly, I was in Japan last Xmas at a friend's studio who uses ProTools HD with a Yamaha 02R 96. I was shocked that he was going analogue out of PT into the 02R! I asked him why, and he said he didn't trust using ADAT/TDIF!!

In A/B tests he said he could not tell the difference between the all digital path and the analogue one. He works at 96K and all I can say is that I have never heard Yamaha NS10s sound so good! He also had a nice Manley Mic Pre and reckoned there was also little difference between that and the 02R's pres! It certainly made me feel confident about my DM1000 purchase.

Anyway, just wanted to let you know that I think Yamaha have made big improvements to their new range of mixers sonically, although getting around them is still a pain!

Chris Nicolaides
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George Massenburg

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Re: Advise from serious proes regarding PT + 02R 96
« Reply #7 on: June 01, 2004, 11:22:36 am »

Glad you're happy with the DM1000.  One of my best friends is mixing surround on one, and is getting along well.

My objection stands, though.  Yamaha still has much to do to demonstrate their committment to this as a product, as compared with a "one-off, sell as many as we possibly can, then pull support".  By the way, Mackie was no better with the d8b - they left the product and their customers with alot of empty promises.

Glad it's working out.

George
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Chris Nicolaides

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Re: Advise from serious proes regarding PT + 02R 96
« Reply #8 on: June 01, 2004, 11:40:34 am »

Hi George,

I'm sure you're right about Yamaha support etc, but I now have a mixer that is not very expensive and performs well. It just works, unlike the damn d8b where I found myself spending more time on the damn user forum than making music! I am glad I finally got away from Mackie's 'Empty promises', although I do miss your great EQ plug-in!!

It'll be interesting to see if Yamaha's new plug-ins for the current mixers are any good, and for how long they will support them. Time will tell...

Thanks,

Chris Nicolaides

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Alécio Costa - Brazil

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Re: Advise from serious proes regarding PT + 02R 96
« Reply #9 on: June 01, 2004, 02:59:38 pm »

Axiamusic, was your friend recording from the 02R 96 to PT digitally with an MY8At(48k/44k limit) or with an MY16At ( 96k) card or with the analog outs of teh 02R doing the d/a 96k to the pt hd  interface?
I have seen a few people reporting the a/d improvEd a lot and it is a bonus that the board works as a fancy mouse for PT. ( No Icon, please!)
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Alécio Costa Studio
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Listen to my album at:
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Chris Nicolaides

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Re: Advise from serious proes regarding PT + 02R 96
« Reply #10 on: June 01, 2004, 05:46:30 pm »

Hi Alecio,

My friend was not recording through the Yamaha when I was there. He was using the Manley pre into ProTools HD. He was then using ProTools analogue outputs into the 02R 96 along with other outboard gear and a PC running Gigastudio, also going in analogue. I think he ultimately had the Yamaha setup with 48 analogue inputs. As I already mentioned, I was very impressed with the sound of his system. I don't believe what I was hearing would sound significantly better if it was done in a top commercial studio. That's my ears though!

Chris Nicolaides

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Bill Mueller

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Re: Advise from serious proes regarding PT + 02R 96
« Reply #11 on: June 01, 2004, 11:22:18 pm »

In my experience, the best company for continued support has been SSL. They upgraded the computer on the 4k for over 10 years.

However, even SSL created a 48k, 20 bit $600,000.00 console that doesn't punch. Sony has abandoned the Oxford. Tascam has orphaned I don't know how many products. I hope my MX2424 is not next. Digi abandons hardware as standards change.

In light of all that, Yamaha looks pretty good. My DM2000 sounds great, does not hickup and is expandable through the MY-8 and 16 cards. It did not take me a week to get comfortable and I know I still have a lot to learn about it. It controls PT, has surround mastering and monitoring facilities and 5.1, high quality reverb. It does 96k/24bit on all channels and does not make heat. I can carry it up a flight of stairs and control 72 mic pres  with it. The bug fix list is laughably tiny. Yamaha has brought out a series of software upgrades that actually compliment and expand the machine instead of fixing problems that should have been resolved before it was released (like other companies we know).

I'm ok with it.

Best Regards,

Bill
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Alécio Costa - Brazil

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Re: Advise from serious proes regarding PT + 02R 96
« Reply #12 on: June 02, 2004, 01:23:24 am »

It is interesting how people change their minds quickly...lol
I remember watching EQ and  Mix magazines between 1996/1999. Lots of pro rec facilities had at least two 02Rs.
And suddenly, a few years later, the board became brittle, mic pres methalic and the only way to achive a decent sound is  thru a stellar priced mic pre or going with PT HD Accell...
Seems Elliot S. uses Nuendo + DM2000... cool also!
Today I receieved a top platinum brazilian producer and all he wanted to know was if we had Neumman mics and PT TDM.
Detail: Never heard about Audio Technica... Embarassed
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Alécio Costa Studio
High-end Mastering, Music Production
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Listen to my album at:
http://www.audiostreet.net/aleciocosta

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skiboy

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Re: Advise from "serious proes" regarding PT + 02R 96
« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2004, 11:41:25 am »

Hi Alecio, Bill, my regards,

I can wholeheartedly agree with everyone using a DM series with either analogue or digital inputs. Compared to Digi in-the-box MIX, it's like night and day. As I can read here, with a HD mix itb, the difference might not be so apparent. There may be none at all.
So coming back to "HD vs 02R96" - I/we/studio decided to skip the pains of upgrading to HD, OSX, et al. by getting a 02R96.
Our MIX TDM system is rock solid. Logic Pro and VST synths blaze away with minimal latency. ESB works fine, PT 5.1.3/OS9  never let us down.
So why meddle with that ? With our studio's  schedule, any downtime would be CATASTROPHIC.
And sure, we could have bought like maybe 16 channels of Millenia pres for the money, or we could have done a HD upgrade( sans MasterX5- not an option)
But, if my clients ask me how many inputs I can record at once - I say 24 minimum. The they ask if I have PT, sure...hahahahaha (HD or MIX; never makes any difference to them).
And then there are the monitor mixes - easy to do on a 02, a PITA in PT.
And I feel for the poor sods who bought their procontrols or other junk "controllers". I paid my dues with a Mackie HUI and "...quoth the Raven; NEVERMORE"

A proper mixing desk is a liberating experience after years of itb routing/mixing. Very Happy
And I'm not even touching surround mixing issues here.

Will the yammie desks face obsolesence before their time ?
Yes, because their processing power will be a fraction of new generation CPUs.
No, because of its 96k, 5.1, 24 pre/AD, infinite routing, moving faders and PT remote layer .

PS I'm not a "serious pro", I fancy myself as bit of a clown, really.

Piotr  K Laughing k Laughing sinski
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Alécio Costa - Brazil

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Re: Advise from serious proes regarding PT + 02R 96
« Reply #14 on: June 04, 2004, 01:09:33 am »

Many thanks skiboy,
I will probably do the very same move. My Mix plus/PT5.1.3 is doing pretty fine and stable. Fortunately, Version 2 of the 02R software has been released for some time and nice features are there..
BTW.. just sent ya a PM
Nice friday to all
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Alécio Costa Studio
High-end Mastering, Music Production
http://www.aleciocosta.com

Listen to my album at:
http://www.audiostreet.net/aleciocosta

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Plush

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Re: Advise from serious proes regarding PT + 02R 96
« Reply #15 on: June 04, 2004, 08:59:32 am »

We can advise you that the latest range of Yamaha consoles
is MUCH improved over the original 02R. We are using a Yamaha DM1000 here for our digital console. We also have a Neve.
In the new Yamaha range, mic pres are much improved and are good. A/D and D/A conversion are very much better than older models as are the on board effects.

I hear George's comment about customer support. However, I think that with the reasonable cost of the Yamaha consoles, it is not such a bad thing. Should one hold Yamaha ($5000 purchase) to the same standard as Neve (750,000 purchase)?

Deutsche Grammophon recently converted to all Yamaha consoles for location/edit work. Although they may be modified, I feel it is an endorsement from a quality oriented organization.

   
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Rob Darling

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Re: Advise from serious proes regarding PT + 02R 96
« Reply #16 on: June 04, 2004, 09:51:12 am »

One of my clients recently switched from the O2R to the DM-2000.  I hate it.  It sounds much better, but the user interface is an absolute abortion and it is completely hamstrung on analog output- just 8 sends.  As much experience as I have with the O2R, I can't wade through the DM-2000 at gunpoint.

If you need a desk, I think the Sony is a far superior piece of equipment, though I'd put my money into an Accel upgrade before the June 30th deadline.  Money spent with Digi is still the best investment in digital and with PDC, mixes are much, much better, not to mention the upgrade you'll get in convertor quality.
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Alécio Costa - Brazil

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Re: Advise from serious proes regarding PT + 02R 96
« Reply #17 on: June 04, 2004, 11:53:55 am »

Many different opinions. This is pretty cool.but in my case changing the daw and keeping the same a/d.. I dunno...
Anyone else has experience with the 02r 96?mix /hd?
Razz  
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Alécio Costa Studio
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Bill Mueller

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Re: Advise from serious proes regarding PT + 02R 96
« Reply #18 on: June 13, 2004, 05:33:47 pm »

Rob,

Sorry to hear your problem getting in sync with the DM2000. I was leery at first because I was so used to Solid State Logic consoles but it took very little time to get used to the machine. Not that I don't have suggestions for Yamaha to improve the interface. The fader/encoder buttons should be down at a much easier place to reach because you use them constantly and have to reach up over the faders to get to them.

You can add as many analog outputs as you want by installing very inexpensive my8 cards. Check it out if you feel you need more analog outs. One of the beautiful things about this desk is its customization capability.

Buying a Sony desk at this time is not a good idea. I have heard some nasty rumors regarding its continuation. It is not the desk the Yamaha is anyway. As I have said before, just the mic pres, effects, patching, multi mixing, matrixing, surround monitoring and surround processing are worth the money.

The 96k capability should keep it current for a very long time as well. I know it was a good investment for me.

Best Regards,

Bill
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Marc

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Re: Advise from serious proes regarding PT + 02R 96
« Reply #19 on: June 13, 2004, 08:24:12 pm »

Alecio,
I'm in a similar spot. I have 2 studios, #1 with PT Mix Plus (running on an old 9600!) and an O2R, and #2 with PT Mix (running on a G4) and an O2R. After much consideration, I've decided (I think) to take advantage of the Digidesign trade-in and go with PT HD Accel 3 (G5 dual 2 or 2.5) in Studio 1 with a DM 2000. That will just about break our bank so in Studio 2 we are going to upgrade to PT HD Accel 2 (G5 Dual 1.8 old, or 2.0) and (for the while) keep the O2R.
At the first chance I get, I'll replace the O2R in #2 with the DM 1000.
I'll be interested in hearing what you decide to do.
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Marc McManeus
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Alécio Costa - Brazil

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Re: Advise from serious proes regarding PT + 02R 96
« Reply #20 on: June 14, 2004, 01:11:03 am »

HI, Marc
I am still inclined to go in the 02R 96 direction.
The HD Accel upgrade is still too expensive in Brazil. Just to upgrade my Mix Plus + 1 adat bridge to HD Accel2 + 96 I/o or 192 I/O digital I will pay more than 50% of the price of an 02R 96.
And I do not see a big reason going to Accel and staying with the 20 bit limited a/d of the 02R.
What are your thoughts my friend?
Thanks and nice week to all
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Alécio Costa Studio
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Listen to my album at:
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Re: Advise from serious proes regarding PT + 02R 96
« Reply #21 on: June 14, 2004, 07:19:37 am »

Alecio,
I understand your dilemma. And given the same circumstances, I'd probably do the same thing.
Our concern was that we will become "orphaned" on an old PT system with no reasonable, cost effective way to become current. It's still a LOT of money for a small company like ours, but the thought of spending an additional $15,000 - 18,000 (on both studios) put the PT upgrade as a higher priority than the O2R (at least in studio 2).
BTW, thanks for all of your great questions and comments on these boards. over the years I've become a professional lurker on these boards and genuinely appreciate those who are more brave than I am about speaking their minds.
Thanks,
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drew

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Re: Advise from serious proes regarding PT + 02R 96
« Reply #22 on: June 14, 2004, 09:28:09 am »

robdarling@mail.com wrote on Fri, 04 June 2004 09:51

One of my clients recently switched from the O2R to the DM-2000.  I hate it.  It sounds much better, but the user interface is an absolute abortion and it is completely hamstrung on analog output- just 8 sends.  As much experience as I have with the O2R, I can't wade through the DM-2000 at gunpoint.

If you need a desk, I think the Sony is a far superior piece of equipment, though I'd put my money into an Accel upgrade before the June 30th deadline.  Money spent with Digi is still the best investment in digital and with PDC, mixes are much, much better, not to mention the upgrade you'll get in convertor quality.


I agree completely...  DM on paper is amazing, in use? annoying.

I own a DMX and use a DM2000 almost daily, so I know them both pretty well. Only buy the Sony if it does what you need now (and can get a deal) and don't expect any further development because Sony is basically out of Pro Audio. The Sony used will be about half of what the Yamama cost. I'm also a PTHD2 owner and I'd say to go that way if you can swing it. PTHD with George's EQ and the Oxford stuff, the Cranesong Phoenix, the URS EQs, etc is hard to beat for compatibility, flexibility, and sound, yes sound.

also, people love to bash digi but who else does the hardware exchanges like they do????? who else will give you roughly used market value for last generation hardware??
drew
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Alécio Costa - Brazil

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Re: Advise from serious proes regarding PT + 02R 96
« Reply #23 on: June 14, 2004, 01:30:39 pm »

yes, Drew, you got the point... Digi gear keeps a value, better than nothing for sure.
What digi needs to do to have more people going HD is to provide more plugs with their bundles. There are still many studios using those damn [k]s under OS 9.2
Marc, many thanks for your words. I am login in at your nice page soon
Smile
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Alécio Costa Studio
High-end Mastering, Music Production
http://www.aleciocosta.com

Listen to my album at:
http://www.audiostreet.net/aleciocosta

MySpace:
http://www.myspace.com/aleciocostamasterizacao
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