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Author Topic: Fascinating explanation of the human need for god  (Read 13381 times)

cerberus

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Re: Fascinating explanation of the human need for god
« Reply #90 on: April 24, 2008, 01:50:29 am »

nathan; ok, chapter two: the cow. re: animal sacrifice.
i believe that has nothing to do with me.

jeff dinces

studiojimi

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Re: Fascinating explanation of the human need for god
« Reply #91 on: April 24, 2008, 10:14:55 am »

CHANCE wrote on Tue, 22 April 2008 05:59

WOW this is a hard topic. Something I have discovered is that you can not force God on someone. Before I became a Christian (a real Christian), many people kept trying to shove Jesus down my throat. I now know that it doesn't work that way. It wasn't until I started seeking (truly seeking), that I found this amazing gift. It in no way can be explained. The bible calls it "a peace that surpasses all human understanding". This has had a great influence on our planet. If anyone doubts it, just imagine that your car breaks down late at night in a bad part of town. You then see four large people walking toward you. Wouldn't you be relieved knowing that those four people were actually on their way home from a late night bible study?


this was a great post

there is a miracle available in each and everyone of us

no matter what the need....that peace is there patiently waiting not forcing Itself on anyone.

got ailment?

YOUR HEALING IS TODAY.

Today
is a great day to affirm:  
I am healed!
I am healed!  
I am healed!
(say it out loud if you really wanna rock your world!)

Healing
is your gift from God.  
There is
no charge or free for it.
 It is your divine birthright.  
No matter your circumstances,
diagnosis or prognosis,
you can choose
to cling to the Trith that:
 I am healed!  
I am healed!  
I am healed!

Around the world
there are scores of pepole
who are praying with you
and
knowing this Truth
with you.  
They give of their time
to lift others in prayer.
You can contact them
by reaching out right
where you are
and silently or verbally
saying something as simple as
"Pray with me today!"
As soon as you ask,
God responds
by moving upon hearts
all over the world
to respond to your request.

Like a warm blanket
these prayers comfort you
and
help to clarify God's message
in your heart.
You then rest
in the assurance
that God has heard you
and
hears you always.
You know
that you are blessed.
Take a moment
and
give thanks
that this is so.  
God bless you.

" . . . pray for one another, so that you may be healed . . ."
James 5:16


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How very good and pleasant it is
when kindred live together in unity!
Psalm 133:1

mgod

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Re: Fascinating explanation of the human need for god
« Reply #92 on: April 24, 2008, 10:17:37 am »

cerberus wrote on Wed, 23 April 2008 22:50

nathan; ok, chapter two: the cow. re: animal sacrifice.
i believe that has nothing to do with me.

jeff dinces


Well, that was sort of my point about not knowing where to start. One man's "reliable" is another's sacrilege. How many versions of the NT are there? And of course some are just incorrect, depending upon the rock you're standing on or the prison you find yourself contained in, again according to interpretation - that's the danger of religion of course. I think there's so much controversy in the west about the qu'ran that personally I'm not interested in what one guy says is "reliable" - especially someone outside that faith. I need a teacher, and I believe that teacher has to be sought - someone who has done more than read the words, but who knows the meaning. And again, of course, there might be many meanings to be sifted through.

DS
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Barry Hufker

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Re: Fascinating explanation of the human need for god
« Reply #93 on: April 24, 2008, 12:34:48 pm »

For any in this thread looking for shades of meaning in the words as translated into English, may I suggest an "amplified" Bible.  Great care is taken there to convey all nuances.

Here, for instance, is the first chapter of Genesis:

Genesis 1 (Amplified Bible)
Amplified Bible (AMP)

Copyright
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studiojimi

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Re: Fascinating explanation of the human need for god
« Reply #94 on: April 24, 2008, 12:55:55 pm »

mgod wrote on Thu, 24 April 2008 07:17

I need a teacher, and I believe that teacher has to be sought - someone who has done more than read the words, but who knows the meaning. And again, of course, there might be many meanings to be sifted through.

DS



"when the student is ready...the teacher will appear."
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How very good and pleasant it is
when kindred live together in unity!
Psalm 133:1

PookyNMR

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Re: Fascinating explanation of the human need for god
« Reply #95 on: April 24, 2008, 02:31:59 pm »

mgod wrote on Thu, 24 April 2008 08:17

cerberus wrote on Wed, 23 April 2008 22:50

nathan; ok, chapter two: the cow. re: animal sacrifice.
i believe that has nothing to do with me.

jeff dinces


Well, that was sort of my point about not knowing where to start. One man's "reliable" is another's sacrilege. How many versions of the NT are there? And of course some are just incorrect, depending upon the rock you're standing on or the prison you find yourself contained in, again according to interpretation - that's the danger of religion of course. I think there's so much controversy in the west about the qu'ran that personally I'm not interested in what one guy says is "reliable" - especially someone outside that faith. I need a teacher, and I believe that teacher has to be sought - someone who has done more than read the words, but who knows the meaning. And again, of course, there might be many meanings to be sifted through.

DS


There's not different "versions", but rather different translations.

Each translation has a different bent and has different reasons for being.  Some are paraphrases to be in more modern conversational English to make it easier to read, some are more literal word-for-word (or as much of that as you can do).  But you for sure are not going to find any major disagreements that change any of the message in any way.  It's about taking ancient texts and making them accessible to different audiences with different needs of people.

If you look at the Qu'ran translations, you're not going to see a divergence in the message, maybe a few variations in some of the English words to convey they ideas.


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Nathan Rousu

studiojimi

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Re: Fascinating explanation of the human need for god
« Reply #96 on: April 24, 2008, 02:45:24 pm »

PookyNMR wrote on Thu, 24 April 2008 11:31

  It's about taking ancient texts and making them accessible to different audiences with different needs of people.






exactly

the reason for the gospels and the versatility of the different disciples gifts  and approaches....
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MY MYSPACE
How very good and pleasant it is
when kindred live together in unity!
Psalm 133:1

bruno putzeys

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Re: Fascinating explanation of the human need for god
« Reply #97 on: April 24, 2008, 03:02:22 pm »

Barry Hufker wrote on Thu, 24 April 2008 18:34

For any in this thread looking for shades of meaning in the words as translated into English, may I suggest an "amplified" Bible.  Great care is taken there to convey all nuances.

This gives some indication of what bible translators wrestle with hugely, but it still presents the problem as being rather simple.

What it covers is the semantic side of the issue, where any word will cover a range of meanings, and when you're translating a word into another language you'll find that no single word in the target language covers exactly the same range of meaning. A simple non-biblical example would be the English word "table". I'm sure we're now all thinking of an elevated horizontal surface posed on four feet. The Dutch word for that is "tafel". Simple? Hang on, the word "tafel" is never used to mean a rectangular list of numbers, and neither does it describe the imaginary surface below which ground water is found. The difference gets subtler, when some "tafels" are benches but not all benches are "tafels" etc. Almost no word in one language matches 100% with another word in another language. That means that listing a bunch of possible translations, as the Amplified Bible apparently does, will probably cover the original range of meaning in its entirety, but will fail to delineate it. The reader is in peril of deducing a meaning which was never meant in the original.

Another complexity that's rarely appreciated (and that I don't see addressed in the Amplified Bible) is grammatical. Not all languages have the same kind of past, present and future tenses. Semitic and Arabic languages use "aspect", denoting whether we're talking about the start of an action, the course of an action (and whether that includes the start, the end or both) or the end of an action, with indications as to actual time given explicitly ("yesterday").

Problems with cultural context in translations should be obvious, but a problem specific to Bible translations is theology. As just one example, whether a translator believes in the holy trinity or not has quite a profound impact on some translations, most notably on the opening verses of the gospel of John.

The upshot is that Bible translations come in a wide variety. In one extreme we find interlinear translations where literal translations (with links to glossary terms to look up the exact scope of each Hebrew or Greek word) are interlined with the Greek or Hebrew original. Such translations are for scholarly use only.  Lacking special cultural or linguistic knowledge a layman is guaranteed to misinterpret it. On the other hand an interlinear translation is almost free from translator bias. On the other extreme are heavily reworded bibles for use by the faithful but which are almost specific to denominations. I get the impression the amplified bible targets the ordinary faithful, while staking a claim to the neutrality of an interlinear translation. Instead, it puts the reader at the same risk posed by an interlinear (misinterpreting glosses) whilst not guaranteeing the translator hasn't imported his personal belief into it.

A good read in this respect is "The Role of Theology and Bias in Bible Translation" by Rolf Furuli. The book somewhat tows its own line (that of the Jehovah's Witnesses' New World Translation to be precise), as reflected in its choice of examples, but it is nevertheless very informative if you want to get a sense of the breadth of issues to be dealt with during translation.
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Barry Hufker

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Re: Fascinating explanation of the human need for god
« Reply #98 on: April 24, 2008, 07:32:24 pm »

Bruno,

Just as you know the nuances of Dutch, so do the translators know the nuances of the original text used to create the Bible.  To address the issues you raise, there is an exhaustive concordance that goes with the translation.  Readers can learn more by referring to the concordance.

You're not giving the same credit to the translators that you give yourself. The translators are not stupid people.  They are experts at what they do.  And the "committee" (which is a word lacking in full meaning of the job they did)was comprised of scholars and pastors so there would be an accurate translation as well as one which conveyed the spiritual meaning.

To my mind this "inaccuracy" thing is a circular argument.  It is proposed by many that the Bible was somehow corrupted at some point as tho' any man has more wisdom and power than God that he could subvert God's purpose and plan.  When people say the Bible has been corrupted (due to one reason or another)those critics remain in a limited humanly realm of understanding.  As such they continually seek errors as a means of discounting what God has said and done.  It is God who gives understanding and meaning to the text and he gives it to every person seeking to know the truth.  God can not be subverted no matter how hard people try or claim it to be so.  That's why he gets to be God...

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CHANCE

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Re: Fascinating explanation of the human need for god
« Reply #99 on: April 24, 2008, 08:45:56 pm »

The Bible
66 books, written by 40 authors, over thousands of years, across several continents.
All with the exact same theme.

When they found and verified the book of Isaiah in the dead sea scrolls and compared the writings to the old testiment in todays bible, the only change was the equivalent to a coma.
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Chance Pataki
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maxim

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Re: Fascinating explanation of the human need for god
« Reply #100 on: April 24, 2008, 10:01:57 pm »

"Quatrain 81

Today, like every day, we are ruined, ruined (by "wine")
Don't open the door of worry, but take up the lute!
There are a hundred kinds of prayer, bowing, and prostration
For the one whose prayer-niche is the beauty of the Beloved.




--From "The Rub
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mgod

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Re: Fascinating explanation of the human need for god
« Reply #101 on: April 24, 2008, 10:03:10 pm »

index.php/fa/8612/0/
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PookyNMR

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Re: Fascinating explanation of the human need for god
« Reply #102 on: April 24, 2008, 11:14:38 pm »

Bruno Putzeys wrote on Thu, 24 April 2008 13:02

Problems with cultural context in translations should be obvious, but a problem specific to Bible translations is theology. As just one example, whether a translator believes in the holy trinity or not has quite a profound impact on some translations, most notably on the opening verses of the gospel of John.


For sure there are biases, understandings of context, theologies that can affect translation.  However, that's why translations are done (mostly) by large groups of scholars to peer review work.

As for the Gospel of John, whether or not one believes trinitarian theology would have no impact on translating that from the original Greek.  The language is quite clear - and particularly clear when you put it in the context of the rest of that gospel.  As you will learn in exegesis or translation classes, words by themselves are meaningless and can only be understood within their contexts.  If one were to take the context of the entirety of John's writings,  it would be hard to deny that John is very much speaking of a trinitarian idea.  So whether or not you agree with that idea, you'd have to be extremely poor (or dishonest) in your scholarship to try and present John's writings from any non-trinitarian idea.

Bruno Putzeys wrote on Thu, 24 April 2008 13:02

 Lacking special cultural or linguistic knowledge a layman is guaranteed to misinterpret it.


Which is exactly why were taught the scholarly process of exegesis.

Bruno Putzeys wrote on Thu, 24 April 2008 13:02

A good read in this respect is "The Role of Theology and Bias in Bible Translation" by Rolf Furuli. The book somewhat tows its own line (that of the Jehovah's Witnesses' New World Translation to be precise), as reflected in its choice of examples, but it is nevertheless very informative if you want to get a sense of the breadth of issues to be dealt with during translation.


Absolutely, the process of translating ancient texts is difficult.  I've studied under a bona fide translator.  But the process is not impossible.
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Nathan Rousu

mgod

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Re: Fascinating explanation of the human need for god
« Reply #103 on: April 25, 2008, 01:14:51 am »

Bruno, I found this book very useful - you might too:

 http://www.amazon.com/Misquoting-Jesus-Story-Behind-Changed/  dp/0060859512/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=12 09099976&sr=8-1From

Booklist:
The popular perception of the Bible as a divinely perfect book receives scant support from Ehrman, who sees in Holy Writ ample evidence of human fallibility and ecclesiastical politics. Though himself schooled in evangelical literalism, Ehrman has come to regard his earlier faith in the inerrant inspiration of the Bible as misguided, given that the original texts have disappeared and that the extant texts available do not agree with one another. Most of the textual discrepancies, Ehrman acknowledges, matter little, but some do profoundly affect religious doctrine. To assess how ignorant or theologically manipulative scribes may have changed the biblical text, modern scholars have developed procedures for comparing diverging texts. And in language accessible to nonspecialists, Ehrman explains these procedures and their results. He further explains why textual criticism has frequently sparked intense controversy, especially among scripture-alone Protestants. In discounting not only the authenticity of existing manuscripts but also the inspiration of the original writers, Ehrman will deeply divide his readers. Although he addresses a popular audience, he undercuts the very religious attitudes that have made the Bible a popular book. Still, this is a useful overview for biblical history collections. Bryce Christensen Copyright
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Edvaard

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Re: Fascinating explanation of the human need for god
« Reply #104 on: April 25, 2008, 01:35:02 am »


Some were delivered by God, some were delivered by the devil, some were delivered by a toothless bearded hag. *can't we all just get along?*
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