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Author Topic: "reamping" 2 buss mix to "gel" it together  (Read 3189 times)

bitrot

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"reamping" 2 buss mix to "gel" it together
« on: May 23, 2004, 08:30:43 pm »

In tape-op #36, in an interview with Brian Deck (modest mouse, ugly cassanova), he says "Occasionally I'll just bus the whole mix out to the room, set up two fairly similar guitar amps and mic it out in the room just to give the overall mix some space. I actually do that on almost every record."

I'd like to experiment with this, and I've got some questions that I hope will keep me from causing all kinds of phase or related problems, since I'm curious how this room sound is mic'd and blended back in without just screwing the mix up.  

1) I don't have 2 similar sounding amps..  while I am sure I can use my exquisite (ahem) HR824's for this... is there something two amps gives you over using two mains?  tone shaping abilities?  smaller frequency spectrum (avoid muddy low mids when mixing it in?  why not just mic a mono mix?

2) Do you mic in stereo?  I'd suspect not, since instinct tells me this would mess with the stereo image already present in the mix.  

3) mic choice and placement:  I imagine omnis are "better", since the goal is to capture ambience  ...but what about distance issues and any phase problems that might result?  Are there any rules of thumb when getting room sound like this to avoid phase problems?  Or does it not matter since you are looking for ambience and its inherent delay?  can you just put the mic up anywhere it sounds good on the 'phones?

4) anyone doing this over using short hall reverbs on the whole mix?  anyone using light reverb on a whole mix in general for rock?  

for starters, I'm thinking of throwing a mono mix out my pathfinder and using an omni on the other side of the room.  The song is a traditional rock arrangement.

any pointers to obvious pitfalLs with phase and timing issues would be welcome.

thanks!

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Fletcher

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Re: "reamping" 2 buss mix to "gel" it together
« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2004, 02:49:03 pm »

There aren't really phase and timing issues per se as "reverb" is really a 'random phase event'... and that's what this technique does is generate reverb.

Since the days of Les Paul and Jerry Lee Lewis people have been effecting the 2 buss... to do so with a "room sound" is nothing new or radical... especially when things have been 'close mic'ed and recorded with for all intents and purposes no room sound.

It is often an effective way to place an event in the same room with the other sounds... definitely something worthy of your time for experimentation... might work, might suck... depends on the song and the room and your sense of what is and what ain't right for the song.

Best of luck with it!!
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CN Fletcher

mwagener wrote on Sat, 11 September 2004 14:33
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If you've spent most of your life with a few thousand dollars worth of musicians in the studio, making a decision every second and a half... and you and  they are going to have to live with it for the rest of your lives, you'll get pretty arrogant too.  It takes a certain amount of balls to do that... something around three"
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Fibes

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Re: "reamping" 2 buss mix to "gel" it together
« Reply #2 on: May 24, 2004, 03:11:46 pm »

The whole 2 buss mix reamped? Something i'll unlikely try. The advantages of doing this on solo instruments that were tracked elsewhere is always something to try. Sometimes a drum buss can work in this regard too if the room sounds great.

Some of the new convolution reverbs out there can be just as effective in todays climate. Altiverb has some great room samples and actually sounds worth a damn. BTW you can sample your own room utilizing different mics, patterns and placements too.
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Fibes
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bitrot

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Re: "reamping" 2 buss mix to "gel" it together
« Reply #3 on: May 24, 2004, 04:05:39 pm »

Reamping mix = verb is a great concise explanation.  

I have a typical home bedroom studio, so I'll probably rely on using SIR and some impulses.

thanks!




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Otitis Media

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Re: "reamping" 2 buss mix to "gel" it together
« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2004, 08:37:13 am »

And as for your HR824's, they'll work fine!  Bob Clearmountain uses them for his live chambers at Mix This, according to his website.  You can get the effect with a single mic/speaker, but for a stereo effect, go with stereo micing, at least.  Play around with it the same as you would a rackmounted 'verb to see what you like.  

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Dan Roth
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Three-Legged Cat

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Re: "reamping" 2 buss mix to "gel" it together
« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2004, 12:39:54 pm »

I've run into the same problem of not having two similar amps, and I've done this in the past (mostly for room sounds).  I'll take one half of the stereo image (pick a channel) into the amp, and record that into the room.  Then, do it a second time using the exact same setup but with the other half of the stereo image into the amp.  Not  quite the same as putting the whole stereo image through two amps (or monitors), but it works.
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Jonathan Price

bitrot

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Re: "reamping" 2 buss mix to "gel" it together
« Reply #6 on: May 25, 2004, 04:53:28 pm »

"2 pass mono"  great idea.

as for my mackies... I'm actually ok with them, but you really don't hear that many glowing reviews... so many folks seem dead set against them.  Saying you use them and like them is almost tantamount to a confession of weakness or cluelessness.  Perhaps I should have gotten passive dynaudios, but these were the cheapest best set I could buy at the time, and they'll work until that day when the adams walk into my house.

bass trapping, the switches, isolation, placement.... all those things have helped in the year that i've owned them... but practice mixing on them has helped the most, as I imagine it would for any speaker.

I'm used to them.  They'll do for now.  Just don't tell anyone. Wink
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Otitis Media

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Re: "reamping" 2 buss mix to "gel" it together
« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2004, 05:30:37 pm »

What the hell do I know, but I used them for 2 years doing audio post and liked them.  I still like them.  They're not the best thing I've ever heard, but they sound good, like budget Genelecs (yes, I know what the hell Genelecs sound like!).  

Way better than all those blowhards that use NS-10s!  At least these things sound PLEASANT!  There's some argument about the passive radiator and all that, but overall, once you learn any monitor and how it translates, you should be able to pull off a good mix that also translates.  How soon you want to stick an icepick in your ear while listening to the speakers I guess is the mark of a great monitor vs. a shitty one.  NS10s just make me wish I was shutting off the amp, usually.  Been really impressed with them when they've got tons of wattage, but overall I think the Mackies are a fine monitor to mix with if you know how they're interacting with your room.  

I like the Earthworks Sigma 6.2's if I'm going to buy mid/nearfields the next time around...

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Dan Roth
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Ross Hogarth

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Re: "reamping" 2 buss mix to "gel" it together
« Reply #8 on: May 26, 2004, 01:38:59 am »

Fibes wrote on Mon, 24 May 2004 12:11

The whole 2 buss mix reamped? Something i'll unlikely try. The advantages of doing this on solo instruments that were tracked elsewhere is always something to try. Sometimes a drum buss can work in this regard too if the room sounds great.  


I agree, I don't think that this is a technique I plan on. The phase incoherency has to be abominable. I  will re amp any number of things but the whole mix just seems like a very wacky concept ...let me know how it works, I guess there are somethings that I am preconceived about.
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Otitis Media

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Re: "reamping" 2 buss mix to "gel" it together
« Reply #9 on: May 26, 2004, 08:30:53 am »

I tend to agree with Fletcher, phase coherency is NOT a concern when you're doing this.  You're TRYING to create random phase events.  

This is no different than what you'd get from a dedicated live chamber reverb like Abbey Road and Motown...

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Dan Roth
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John Ivan

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Re: "reamping" 2 buss mix to "gel" it together
« Reply #10 on: May 31, 2004, 01:18:53 pm »

This might be a silly question but we are talking about just blending "some" of this in to the final two mix Right?. I've done this with PA speakers for drum busses but never a final. I'll try it though. Could be fun.
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bitrot

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Re: "reamping" 2 buss mix to "gel" it together
« Reply #11 on: June 01, 2004, 12:07:34 pm »

yeah, blended back in, although now that you mention it, a mix of the mic'd sound alone could be fun as the outro...

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