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Author Topic: IMP17 Beat J.Hall Discussion  (Read 11903 times)

Greg Dixon

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Re: IMP17 Beat J.Hall Discussion
« Reply #75 on: April 20, 2008, 05:27:28 am »

Podgorny wrote on Sun, 20 April 2008 15:40


Greg Dixon
Very Dark.  Very Dry, except the lead vocal, which has an out-time-delay.  Weird edit during the "let go and live section".  Vocals too low.  Was this mixed on headphones?




Ha blame J! This was a match J submission. Delay on vocal changes at different points, trying to follow what J did.  There are no edits by me and no it wasn't mixed on headphones.
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Antman

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Re: IMP17 Beat J.Hall Discussion
« Reply #76 on: April 20, 2008, 12:19:30 pm »

Podgorny wrote on Sun, 20 April 2008 13:40



Antman
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Antman

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Re: IMP17 Beat J.Hall Discussion
« Reply #77 on: April 20, 2008, 12:22:07 pm »

Adam Miller wrote on Thu, 17 April 2008 06:35

Antman wrote on Tue, 15 April 2008 05:49



Where do you hear the compression? I've got drums and bass sends grouped together and heavily compressed and mixed in underneath the dry tracks.



That would do it- plus whatever distortion-type effect you've got on the vocal makes it a bit too forward too soon in the track, imo.



I don't remember putting any distortion on his voice! I just brought up some of the very high frequencies that I felt accentuated the "throat being torn apart" sound.

Maybe I screwed up some levels somewhere along the line.  Embarassed
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J-Texas

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Re: IMP17 Beat J.Hall Discussion
« Reply #78 on: April 23, 2008, 09:49:44 pm »

Podgorny wrote on Sun, 20 April 2008 00:40


JTexas
I've got to be honest.  I think this sounds dark, but I don't know anymore.  I've been listening too loud, and I'm tired of this song.  Guitars aren't very wide.  I think your snare sample sounds more natural than iCombs'.  The delay on the vocal in the bridge is distracting. I accidentally typed "distractive".  I need to get some sleep.


WHERE'S MY FUCKING ALIEN WRITING DUDE?  Laughing



Thank you for the listen. Contrary to what some might say about the way I take criticism  Rolling Eyes  it was all very welcome and I did go back in and kick this thing's ass.
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Jason Thompson
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Boedo Constrictor

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Re: IMP17 Beat J.Hall Discussion
« Reply #79 on: April 23, 2008, 11:23:23 pm »

BoedoConstrictor
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Greg Thompson

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Re: IMP17 Beat J.Hall Discussion
« Reply #80 on: April 28, 2008, 01:37:13 pm »

I figure until I took the time to critique everybody else's mix, I had no right discussing anything else in the forum.

I found that folks fell into easy identifiable groups:
A)  People who have fucked monitoring situations and have some glaring errors going on with their mixes
B)  People who have a lot going right with their mixes, but just needed 1 or 2 nudges with the mix to have it just right
C) People who just discovered delay and reverb (and also sometimes fall into either category A and B)  Just because JHall used a few verb throws here and there, doesn't mean that more is better.  As it turns out, less is probably better.

Mixing in a vacuum without being able to bounce your ideas off of anybody really leads to bad things.
Please take all my critiques with a grain of salt.  Most folks think I'm rude anyway.
-Greg
------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------

Bodeoconstrictor:  Vocals a few db too loud.  Not that there's anything wrong with that.  Chorus on the vocal?  Daring!  A little veiled in the upper mids, but the mix takes high end nicely.  

Antman:  Vocal delay.  Umm.  Also daring.  Most likely to be voted down by the band.  Nice sounding drums.  what's going on with the guitars after the breakdown?  Some phasing or is it just the 2 guitars eq'ed differently?  
the guitars sound nice and wide, but when summed to mono, the mix sounds like mostly drums and vocals.
Still.. in stereo the guitars sound just a few db low of where I'd prefer them.

Grant Richard:  Seems like you don't hear what's going on below 80 Hz or so in your speakers.  I'm yanking 32 Hz down 10 dB on my iTunes EQ to tame it.  An easy fix as it seems mostly in your kick drum and not in your bass guitar.   When I switch to the small speakers, it's not apparent at all.
Guitars/bass vocals sound cool.   The mix takes high end pretty well.
There's some guitar hum that's left over from one of the guitars that's not playing, but you muted it in the breakdown.  Kinda disconcerting.  Either lose it completely or leave it on all the time.  

Greg Thompson (me):   Yep.  Brad was right, guitars/cymbals too pointy.  Makes the mix sounds small.  Reminds me of why I have problems listening to my old Quicksand CD's.  Too much kick.  I usually mix with too little kick.   Are the toms too loud at the end?  WTF is that effect on the guitars at the end?   Was trying to make it sound like somebody playing with a half-cocked wah.  I thought the outro could use a little something to spice it up.

Jhall:  Mix sounds veiled.  Don't like the toms ringing (especially in the left channel) at the top.  The "let Go" vocals jump out a little bit.  The effect on them doesn't sound punk.
Not a fan of the mix pumping as the kick drum hits.

Maxim:  Okay.  What happened?  Its like you forgot to turn on the drums and guitars.  Not liking the use of flanging. So turn on the drum and guitar channels and we'll discuss further.

Uncleozzy:  I dig your use of efx, even the backwards swoosh.  Would like to hear the vocals turned down and  de-essed a little as they stand out a little to far against the track.  Kick drum has a little too much ultra-low end, but that's a nitpick.   I think the guitars just need to come up a few dB.  That'll make the kick/snare/bass/vocal sit a little nicer in the stew.  Kick and snare are a bit more forward of the rest of the drum kit.

Cymatics:  Sounds like you took a Vintage Warmer or other 2Buss Masher and jacked the heck out of it and called it a day.  Vocals are getting lost under the guitars and drums.  Bass gets lost too.  Do we go into the part where the drums are pumping like mad or has that been covered already?  This mix seems like you had a lot of fun applying some compression techniques learned from others but going overboard with it.  Guitars are a little too pointy in the presence region

Ator:  Mix sounds boxy.  Like playing on a cheap boom box.   If I kill 250 hz and 2k there's a lot of improvement.  Do we blame the speakers/environment you're monitoring in?  Drum reverb?  I don't like it.  Guitar stereoizer effect you have going on?  Disappears in mono.  Caves head in when I listen in earbuds.  Not recommended.
Kick/snare sound pretty beefy and nicely EQ'ed (after doing that 250/2k eq to the mix)  Choppy effect in breakdown.. discussed already?  Unnecessary.  This is not Kraftwerk.  Long verb on vocals?  Not digging.

Podgorny:  I am enjoying this.  Has a lot of energy.  I think the bass gtr has a little too much hair on it to sit with the guitars    Vocals could be a touch louder in the second verse on..  With the eq'ed vocal at the first chorus, they are plenty loud, but without them later on, vocs are not quite loud enough in the big parts.

BillyBehadz:  Not digging the vocal fx, but I like the overall sound of drums/guitars/bass.

Firefly:  vocal effect... some sort of panning thing with different eq's or a delay on each side?  Makes me feel like I have a clogged eustachian tube.  Also, vocals overall too loud.  So you  have something that offends my ears and it's the loudest thing in the mix.   Bass guitar is owning too much of the bottom end.   You could afford to give more low freq real estate to the guitars and kick drum.   Overall sounds like there's not enough guitars overall.  Sounds like you spent a ton of time getting the balance of the vocal/bass/drums and then added the guitars last and didn't quite get their balance correct.

JTexas:  Yeah.  Vocal effects make it sound like its your first day with a digital delay.  The "my mix is dark" has already been discussed.  When I bring up the top end and decrease the bottom end to clear it up here's what I hear, kick sounds cardboardy.. needs more click.  Bass guitar needs some sculpting so it plays nicely with the others.  Currently it is owning the low freqs, leaving no room for the guitars and kick.  Same thing as I said for Firefly.  Guitars could use a little more hair, vocals could use a little de-essing.  When I brighten it up, the spit in the vocals jumps up the most, with the cymbals coming up next.  Guitars don't really get much brighter, which I think they could use a little.

RKoehler:  Guitars are too dark (for me).  Bass guitar, owning the low end real estate a little too much.  Overall vocals/guitars sound veiled, but drums are bright enough.  I hear what sounds like you're leaning into a 2 buss compressor a little too much, but it doesn't bother me too much.

Rob Darling:   Group vocals jump out a little too far.  Crunch guitars (all but the single note parts)  could be louder.  Kick sounds like there's no eq on it.  A little too jazzy sounding for me.   I don't love the verb environment for the drums, but it works.  I think your tom ringing works pretty well as opposed to how I didn't like it in JHall's mix.

Scott Seifritz:  What's with the delay effect going on forever and ever?  Not punk rock.  There's a huge hump in your kick around 100hz.  Overall spectral balance seems skewed.  Guitars sound too thin in some places, bass and kick too thick, cymbals get loud and overpower vocals in places.

ICombs:  Vocal compression/eq too far over the top.  Sounds like you ran the whole mix through an amp sim.

Adam Miller:  Agreed by all that this is the most balanced mix.  Folks should take a minute to listen to his mix in mono and see that the guitars don't disappear when you do that.  Would like to hear the single note guitar part at 1:00 a little louder, but that's nitpicking.

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J-Texas

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Re: IMP17 Beat J.Hall Discussion
« Reply #81 on: April 28, 2008, 02:56:35 pm »

Greg Thompson wrote on Mon, 28 April 2008 12:37


JTexas:  Yeah.  Vocal effects make it sound like its your first day with a digital delay.  


Laughing YIKES!


Understood about all of the above.

I also gave my guitars some hair.

http://www.dymaxionweb.com/kulturedrome/Hair%20Metal.jpg


THX GREG.



PS


J.

What do you think about making this even more of a real world scenario. What if on the next IMP... we did the mixes. Had one week to do crits. Then another week to post ONE revised mix in the "RECALL" thread.

That way, all of the critiques could be thought of as client input... to see if we can "make it happen".


Just an idea.
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Jason Thompson
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Greg Thompson

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Re: IMP17 Beat J.Hall Discussion
« Reply #82 on: April 28, 2008, 06:21:36 pm »

hahhahhah..
I think this is worthy.  However, wasn't this addressed earlier in an IMP where there was a round of revisions presented?

How about a setup where random "teams" are chosen where mixes are shared between 2  folks of different abilities (weekend warriors  and pro's?) are matched up to share pre-deadline mixes and ideas before posting to the forum?

Just suggestin'.

Somebody kick me if I'm getting uppity.
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uncleozzy

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Re: IMP17 Beat J.Hall Discussion
« Reply #83 on: April 29, 2008, 09:41:17 am »

Greg Thompson wrote on Mon, 28 April 2008 13:37

Uncleozzy:  I dig your use of efx, even the backwards swoosh.  Would like to hear the vocals turned down and  de-essed a little as they stand out a little to far against the track.  Kick drum has a little too much ultra-low end, but that's a nitpick.   I think the guitars just need to come up a few dB.  That'll make the kick/snare/bass/vocal sit a little nicer in the stew.  Kick and snare are a bit more forward of the rest of the drum kit.


Thanks for listening; I appreciate the comments.  I'm continually glad to hear that my mix wasn't a complete mess.  My monitoring situation is sort of lousy, so I really worry about the low end, which was sort of important (!) in this track.  Glad you liked the efx, though; every time I noticed the distorted delay, I thought to myself... too much?  I still think it's a bit much in spots.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: IMP is tremendously educational.  I'll be the first to admit that I haven't the faintest idea of what I'm doing, and it's really helpful to get feedback and hear what others do with the tracks.
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imdrecordings

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Re: IMP17 Beat J.Hall Discussion
« Reply #84 on: April 29, 2008, 02:41:45 pm »

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-Scott S

Greg Thompson

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Re: IMP17 Beat J.Hall Discussion
« Reply #85 on: April 30, 2008, 01:37:15 pm »

Sorry about misspelling your name, Scott.  I retagged all the mp3s so that they showed up in the same place on iTunes/iPod.  I must have misspelled as I redid.

When I was mixing these tracks I had a hard time deciding what sounded cool because I could pretty much turn anything up louder than anything else and it sounded cool.  I kept chasing my tail turning everything louder than everything else.

And then there's the "well, I need to make my mix sound cooler than everybody else's" so where do your reach for that extra special sauce?   Would your mix get you the gig over anybody else's?  Do you play it safe and try and do a good job or do you go over the top?  How far is too far?  I'd say you went just a little too far, but nothing that couldn't be taken care (to make me happy if I were the person you were mixing for) of in 1 or 2 revisions.

I'm listening down to your mix and enjoying a lot of the sounds you got, but there's things that aren't my cup of tea.
Those being:
The long vocal delay
the level and moisture of the group vocals
The level of the guitars vs the vocals just prior to the first "let go" part.  (Enjoying the panning of them more tho)
the level of the guitars prior to the second "let go" part (too low)
The level of the vocals just past that "let go" part (too low)
The sudden rise in level of the guitars at the end. (would be cooler to me if it just jumped for the last 3 chords or last repeat than the way it ramps up)
I would give more exact times for the spots I'm talking about, but something with your mp3 encoder has the numbers all fuckocked on my player and the mp3 comes in at 20 minutes long.

That said, nice drums/bass/guitar/lead vocal sounds.

And let's forget what I say... what would the band say?   I've had plenty of my share of mix ideas revoked.  I like it better when I can offer up those ideas earlier in the mix, before painting myself into a corner with my decisions.   It's a bitch when you're just working in a vacuum and you present a mix and things you spent a ton of time or effort on are immediately nixed.  Or they say "uh, we want X to sound more like Y" and then the whole balance of things falls apart when you try to accommodate the request.  I hate working in a vacuum.  Plus the acoustics are really lousy in a vacuum.

Quote:

 I get the feeling that no one here listens or knows this genre at all and that nobody here mixes from the stand point of creating an "event" with the mix.

I was using a song off of the Refused album "The Shape of Punk to Come" as my frame of reference.  I also took JHalls mix and jacked the top end as a reference, which may help explain why my high mids are so out of whack.
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imdrecordings

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Re: IMP17 Beat J.Hall Discussion
« Reply #86 on: April 30, 2008, 02:33:48 pm »

Greg,

Sorry man.
I just had to delete my post and you saw it! and quoted it! ah!
Don't know why your words kind of got to me.  
I'm a bit embarrassed.  
I liked your mix the most out of all the mixes presented. Maybe that's why... or maybe it was the “punk” comment.  I grew up in the SF Bay area and have lived and played in the gutters of the punk/metal scene there.  

Your response reflects typically how I work or the path I  would have taken for the next step in perfecting this mix.  I usually push things pretty far, some times too far out of shear excitement. then the artist comes in takes a listen and we make final adjustments.  I agree with everything you had to say though, those would definitely make the mix more organic or for the better.

Thanks for taking the time to break down your thoughts, opinions and ideas.  I appreciate that.

Thank you,
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-Scott S

maxim

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Re: IMP17 Beat J.Hall Discussion
« Reply #87 on: April 30, 2008, 10:18:53 pm »

rhino hide is a prerequisite for imp...
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Greg Thompson

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Re: IMP17 Beat J.Hall Discussion
« Reply #88 on: May 01, 2008, 07:48:00 am »

prerequisite for mix criticisms in general
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ScotcH

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Re: IMP17 Beat J.Hall Discussion
« Reply #89 on: May 01, 2008, 12:30:56 pm »

Boedo Constrictor wrote on Wed, 23 April 2008 23:23

BoedoConstrictor
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