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Author Topic: IMP17 Beat J.Hall Discussion  (Read 11905 times)

j.hall

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IMP17 Beat J.Hall Discussion
« on: April 07, 2008, 04:02:28 pm »

remember in this thread that Brad Blackwood and Dave McNair will be doing all the "judging".

that doesn't mean you can't chime in with your thoughts and opinions, it just means that the final word in if you beat me or not is with them.  that applies to me as well....cause of course i'll be voting for my mix.
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J-Texas

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Re: IMP17 Beat J.Hall Discussion
« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2008, 04:59:08 pm »

Yo man. That's bullshit! That sounds like a mastered mix. The one that was in the rar was A LOT darker than that. I think you should put that one up as "J. Hall's Mix". But hey... I only work here. I haven't listened to the links from the other threads but...  Rolling Eyes
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iCombs

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Re: IMP17 Beat J.Hall Discussion
« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2008, 07:19:16 pm »

Since I was a MASSIVE slacker on the last IMP (for which I apologize profusely) I'm going to get to these in groups as they come in.

First up - J-Tex.  Why not?
This is probably the best set of balances I've heard in your mixes yet.  I'm not sure I'm crazy about the lo-fi treatment or the crazy ping-pong delay on the main vocal...your breakdown treatment is almost exactly the same as mine...I guess great minds think alike!  The bass is just a touch dominant for the guitars...and there are a couple spots where the bass totally just farts.  I could also be all over the bass on this because the top is so reserved...I'd probably be singing a slightly different tune if the top were more "finished."

Cymatics - Dirt much?  I like the focus of the bass and guitars...the toms are really ringy...like the mics are in the drums.  Damn are those drums slammed to the absolute max...mono drums in the breakdown...nice touch...I can hear the compressor just SUCK the cymbal decay down in the first verse.  The vocal sits kinda low in the mix...did you add a bunch of hair to these guitars?  They sound pretty big.  Overall the spectral balance feels good but the lead vocal seems like it's darker than the rest of the mix...especially with distorted or filtered vox, check the top against the top of your guitars...not that they should necessarily be the exact same, but they should be commensurate or complimentary in some way.  No guitar fix in the bridge...I like that, but it'd have been nice to hear some more treatment in that spot...really make it stick out a little more.

Firefly - 48k, huh?  Love the depth in drum world.  The whole mix seems to have a phasey quality to it.  not sure if that's intentional or not.  The vocals seem a little dark again compared to the rest of the mix...and the vocal balance is kinda all over the place...man...coming out of the bridge...WTF is going on with that imaging...something's making me queasy.  I don't think the guitars are carrying the size that they probably can while retaining that sort of tone.  The bass rocks...but I'd like to hear it drier...I swear I can hear it in a verb somewhere.  Seriously...that imaging is so weird...

Podgorny - JESUS is that bass awesome.  Rippin'.  There's this honk thing going on with the brass like in the 4-6k sort of place that's a little distracting...the vocals could use a nudge up in the face of that snare.  That snare is pretty much the loudest thing in this mix.  I like the guitars.  The vocal sounds like it's spectrally in the right spot...it just needs to be as loud as the rest of the mix.  Something I got told once that can really help those sorts of things...start your balances with kick, bass, and vocal and then bring in your snare.  With those elements you've basically got the center of your mix together...then do your best to mix around that core.  That first snare hit makes me really excited...what happened to the snare sound from there out?  It seems to lose some of that attitude.

Billybehdaz - Width.  Lots of junk on the vocal...interesting choice...it's really alarming compared to the other mixes...I love the "POP" your snare's got going on...I'd like to hear a little more top on the drums as a whole so they can keep up spectrally...cool treatment in the bridge.  Your mix is easily as crushed as j.'s, and is about as firm as his in terms of not pumping distractingly.  Toms feel like they could use a little more body.  Balances feel solid...I'm not fighting to make out the vocals.

j. hall - love the fundamentals.  everything has its "feet planted" so to speak...the mix as a whole feels like everything is up front...in a way it makes it feel thin in a textural sort of sense...it's like looking at a picture of a hallway as opposed to actually being in a hallway...there's a certain depth that I'd like to hear that I'm not.  Love the vocal placement.  I'm curious as to how your compressed it...with all the lip smacking and plosives, I'm wondering how you kept those in check.

iCombs - bright.  focused in the middle.  Aggressive through the upper mids.  Honestly, I know I really got into those guitars with the EQ, but the top was so smooth that I felt like I could really lay into them with EQ and not start getting painful.  The bass was tricky for me...getting that first set of harmonics above the fundamental to sit right so I could really make notes out cleanly.  The whole mix sounds a little reserved now that I directly compare it to some others.  We'll see what the panel thinks.  I will say I do like the disorienting stereo nature of my bridge section...but we'll see how that goes over.

ATOR - BIG ROOM AND LOTS OF MIDS!  The bass sounds diffuse...room on that?  Wow.  Those guitars sound like there's some extra filth on them.  The sense of space on the snare is awesome, but it sounds like the kick is fairly separate from the toms and snare.  WOW BREAKDOWN.  That panning shit is crazy...makes me think surf music for the incredibly demented.  I wonder if the room needs to be that bloaty through 3-500 hz.  LAST CHORUS!  Wow!  First arrangement change!  Liked the reverse swell into the break.  The room really gets distracting for me.  Balances feel good though...top end is more reserved than I'd probably like to hear, but that's just me.

Adam Miller - Nice spectral balance.  The vocal placement is GREAT.  This mix is a little more compact than most, but I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing.  The guitars could use a little biggenation...the bottom of the guitar where all the notes are is a little thin-ish...but otherwise...this is just a good solid mix...not a lot I can say when its well executed!
======================================================-

That's all for now...I'll catch up on some more when some more come in.
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j.hall

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Re: IMP17 Beat J.Hall Discussion
« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2008, 08:02:47 pm »

J-Texas wrote on Mon, 07 April 2008 15:59

Yo man. That's bullshit! That sounds like a mastered mix. The one that was in the rar was A LOT darker than that. I think you should put that one up as "J. Hall's Mix". But hey... I only work here. I haven't listened to the links from the other threads but...  Rolling Eyes


i promise you it's the same mix.  the one i posted is my typical reference mp3.  the level is bumped up and that's it.  i set my limiter to have no gain reduction, so however loud that makes it is what it is.

if you level match the two you'll find them to be the same.

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maxim

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Re: IMP17 Beat J.Hall Discussion
« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2008, 08:18:18 pm »

my 11 yr old thinks your song is "pretty cool"
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j.hall

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Re: IMP17 Beat J.Hall Discussion
« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2008, 10:28:27 pm »

maxim wrote on Mon, 07 April 2008 19:18

my 11 yr old thinks your song is "pretty cool"



i hope your 11 year old does not have nightmares......i apologize in advance.

HAHAHAHAHAHA
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uncleozzy

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Re: IMP17 Beat J.Hall Discussion
« Reply #6 on: April 07, 2008, 11:55:33 pm »

I hate to jump in here so early, but I know I'm not going to have time to listen to the mixes critically later in the week.  It was really great listening to these; a fantastic learning experience.  Everybody does a little something different that you can take home from their mix.

Here's what my absolute-amateur ears tell me.  Take it all with a grain of salt, though, as I'm not a mixer by anything other than aspiration, and my ears are a bit fatigued after hearing so many of these tonight.  So apologies if I'm less than helpful at times.

In alphabetical order:

Adam Miller:  This is virtually the mix that I wanted to make.  The drums, in particular, are nice.  Bright, crunchy guitars; I like these, too.  Drums are tear-your-head-off punchy.  As iCombs says, perfect, vocal placement, although I'm not 100% behind the delay.  I like this mix.

Antman: Nice and bright, but not too bright.  Vocals are nice and present, although I'd roll back the delay a little bit overall, and bring them up during the breakdown.  I'd like more, or punchier drums, at least kick and snare.  Guitars sound great.

Ator:  The first thing that jumps out is the disorienting stereo separation.  Wow, those guitars are fuzzy.  I'm actually feeling a bit seasick this is so wide.  It also feels a bit bass-heavy, although that could just be a trick of the super-wideness.  I do dig the sound of the snare, though, and especially like the "sucking in" into the break.  The vocal arrangement at the end is nice, too.

Boedoconstrictor: Good balance between the rhythm instruments.  I could use a little more of the vocals in the first verse.  Digging the snare; drums sound nice overall.  I really like this mix, although I'm not crazy about the vocal treatment.

cymatics:  Wow, this is loud.  Lots of grit on the vocals; I like this.  The toms seem a bit flabby, and the overheads are a little loud and bright for my taste; okay, the drums are just crushed, I guess.  Guitars are really in-your-face: nice.  Overall, it's maybe a bit too bright, gritty, and loud for my taste.

firefly:  Interesting vocal treatment; might be a little too loud.  I'm not sure how I feel about all the reverb on the bass.  Drums are a bit buried.  I don't know about this; as iCombs noted, the stereo imaging is crazy.  I just switched to headphones to try to figure it out, but it's still just a little weird to me.

Grant Richard: Are my ears just getting tired, or is this pumping like crazy?  I like the contrast in the vocals in the beginning.  Drums sound great to my ears.  The guitars are a bit too big for the drums, the snare in particular.

Greg Thompson:  Great balance.  I dig the present, dry vocals.  Everything sounds really great together.  I really like this mix.  This is, much like Adam Miller's, the mix I wish I'd done.  The snare sounds maybe a little honky in the breakdown, but overall sounds great.  Not sure about the guitar (bass?) effect at the end.

iCombs:  Whoa, lots of top end grit on those vocals; maybe a bit too top-heavy for me.  Bass sounds pretty nice, but gets a little buried near the end.  Guitars are way-scooped, or at least seem that way next to the bass; not sure I like that.  Background vocals could maybe come down a little in the chorus. Snare is very nice.

JTexas:  Bass sounds great.  Not crazy about all the delay on the vox.  Good balance with the BG vox in the chorus.  Guitars are a little dark for me (even though I like em dark in this song), though the bass sounds good.  Bit dark overall, though, maybe a bit muddy with all the gits and bass together.

maxim: Maybe too much grit/volume on the bass.  Drowns out the drums at the beginning.  Great vocal treatment.  What happened when the guitars kick in?  I expect to get kicked in the teeth, and it's a bit like they're playing in the next room--with the drums.  This treatment on the breakdown guitars is ... unique?  I really need more guitars in this mix.

podgorny:  I like how dry and direct this is; drums, bass, and guitars sound great.  Especially the bass.  Wacky treatment on the BG vox!  Lead vox could come up just a bit in the second verse.  I really like these drums.  The snare is, as iCombs says, loud, but I like it.  I like the vocal edit at the end; sounds like there'll be a few mixes with that edit, and it's a good one.  This is a good mix to my ears, and would be better with just a little more of the vox.

RKoehler:  The drums really pump, or maybe it's the whole mix.  Guitars are are very narrow, in contrast to the fairly wide drums.  I like the vocals a lot, really nice sound there.

Rob Darling:  Digging this mix, great sounds.  Snare is fantastic, love the drums.  I could use a little more guitars overall, but the tone is great.  The overheads get a little out of control in some places.  But I like this mix.

Scott Selfridge:  More gritty vox; I like these.  Lots of bass; the toms are kicking me in the chest.  The first snare edit made me keep rewinding to figure out what was "wrong."  Vox are a little quiet in the pre-breakdown (?!) -- basically inaudible on my monitors.  My biggest gripe, overall, is the vocals.
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grantis

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Re: IMP17 Beat J.Hall Discussion
« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2008, 12:01:23 am »

Quote:

Grant Richard: Are my ears just getting tired, or is this pumping like crazy?


'tis...but not like crazy.

the only thing pumping really hard is the overhead mics.
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Grant Craig
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imdrecordings

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Re: IMP17 Beat J.Hall Discussion
« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2008, 12:16:00 am »

uneclozzy,

Thanks for the healthy criticism.  I love it! Very Happy

Quote:

Scott Selfridge: More gritty vox; I like these. Lots of bass; the toms are kicking me in the chest. The first snare edit made me keep rewinding to figure out what was "wrong." Vox are a little quiet in the pre-breakdown (?!) -- basically inaudible on my monitors. My biggest gripe, overall, is the vocals.


The Vocals being berried was intentional. To me it's a part of a certain genre and draws you in or makes the singer sound like he's fighting something. Builds tension.  

Even High on Fire albums, ISIS/Neurosis  albums have that same quality.   I certainly wasn't going for the Pop Radio friendly mix.

About the edit in the beginning.  I didn't like the lackluster snare hit going into the loud part. I pulled it and if I had more time I would have made it a little more seamless. Either that or try and make the flame punch the listener in the face.  I kind of wanted it to drop in on the off beat and catch the listener by surprise,demanding their attention.  

Thanks again.
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Podgorny

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Re: IMP17 Beat J.Hall Discussion
« Reply #9 on: April 08, 2008, 01:15:02 am »

uncleozzy wrote on Mon, 07 April 2008 22:55

podgorny:  I like how dry and direct this is; drums, bass, and guitars sound great.  Especially the bass.  Wacky treatment on the BG vox!  Lead vox could come up just a bit in the second verse.  I really like these drums.  The snare is, as iCombs says, loud, but I like it.  I like the vocal edit at the end; sounds like there'll be a few mixes with that edit, and it's a good one.  This is a good mix to my ears, and would be better with just a little more of the vox.



Haha...  I spent three hours mixing this, and then came back to it a couple days later to make tweaks, including raising the snare and lowering the vocal.  I did this on purpose because when I put a limiter on the 2 bus, the snare lost its impact, and the vocals came forward!  I didn't put the limiter on the mix I submitted because J Hall mentioned that mastering engineers would be critiquing the mixes and I thought they might be put off by a crushed mix.  I suppose that's what I get for pandering to the judges...

Glad you like the bass though.  Of course, most of it has to do with the fact that the bass sounded good.



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Firefly

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Re: IMP17 Beat J.Hall Discussion
« Reply #10 on: April 08, 2008, 04:45:13 am »

iCombs wrote on Tue, 08 April 2008 01:19



Firefly - WTF is going on with that imaging...something's making me queasy.  



Ah yes, the joys of mixing up to the deadline, and not knowing if what you're doing actually sounds good. I was trying to get a more double tracked feel with a stereo imager...and went overboard it would seem. *Smack across the head* - lesson learned (which is what we're for right?)
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uncleozzy

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Re: IMP17 Beat J.Hall Discussion
« Reply #11 on: April 08, 2008, 08:07:26 am »

imdrecordings

The Vocals being berried was intentional. To me it's a part of a certain genre and draws you in or makes the singer sound like he's fighting something. Builds tension.


Ah, see, a genre with which I'm entirely unfamiliar!  (Which is why I relied so heavily on the reference mix; I opened the RAR and said, whoa, I have no idea what to do with this.)

Podgorny

Of course, most of it has to do with the fact that the bass sounded good.


Ha... which is funny, because it does sound great.  But when I first opened the session and soloed the bass mic, I thought, WTF?!

Firefly

I was trying to get a more double tracked feel with a stereo imager...and went overboard it would seem. *Smack across the head* - lesson learned (which is what we're for right?)


Laughing  I really did have to switch to headphones because it made me seasick on my monitors.  But this whole thing is definitely a learning experience.  My mix has a big oops that I didn't notice til after I uploaded it, too.  Oh well!
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J-Texas

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Re: IMP17 Beat J.Hall Discussion
« Reply #12 on: April 08, 2008, 11:22:50 am »

j.hall wrote on Mon, 07 April 2008 19:02

J-Texas wrote on Mon, 07 April 2008 15:59

Yo man. That's bullshit! That sounds like a mastered mix. The one that was in the rar was A LOT darker than that. I think you should put that one up as "J. Hall's Mix". But hey... I only work here. I haven't listened to the links from the other threads but...  Rolling Eyes


i promise you it's the same mix.  the one i posted is my typical reference mp3.  the level is bumped up and that's it.  i set my limiter to have no gain reduction, so however loud that makes it is what it is.

if you level match the two you'll find them to be the same.




Hey maybe I'm in the wrong business then. I put the two of them together and they sound completely different. I started out on the "copy J.'s mix" and found that there were some things I liked and things that I would change. Hence, the beat J.'s mix (not DIY). If I would have been copying the mix in the discussion thread, mine would have been brighter.

Anyone else think that or am I nuts?

I'm not accusing you of ANYTHING. It doesn't really matter, except to me personally. I know that setting your limiter a little differently is not going to make those types of changes. If indeed it does, then I need to re-learn and re-train my ears. I just don't see how it's possible.
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Jason Thompson
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J-Texas

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Re: IMP17 Beat J.Hall Discussion
« Reply #13 on: April 08, 2008, 11:34:58 am »

iCombs wrote on Mon, 07 April 2008 18:19


First up - J-Tex.  Why not?
This is probably the best set of balances I've heard in your mixes yet.  I'm not sure I'm crazy about the lo-fi treatment or the crazy ping-pong delay on the main vocal...your breakdown treatment is almost exactly the same as mine...I guess great minds think alike!  The bass is just a touch dominant for the guitars...and there are a couple spots where the bass totally just farts.  I could also be all over the bass on this because the top is so reserved...I'd probably be singing a slightly different tune if the top were more "finished."



uncleozzy wrote on Mon, 07 April 2008 22:55


JTexas:  Bass sounds great.  Not crazy about all the delay on the vox.  Good balance with the BG vox in the chorus.  Guitars are a little dark for me (even though I like em dark in this song), though the bass sounds good.  Bit dark overall, though, maybe a bit muddy with all the gits and bass together.



Sorry to reply to you guys together, but I think it would be redundant to do it separately since you had about the same issues.

I Like the delay!  Very Happy  I think it really filled up some of the sparseness of the track. I wouldn't usually go crazy with delay like that, but it fit for me. Kind of like Ad-Rock or something.

I really felt comfortable with the balance in this one. I think after years of recording, I'm finally starting to understand what I'm doing.  Laughing   This has been REALLY good for me. I appreciate all of the feedback. Especially J. for pushing me to challenge myself and being blunt.

As far as the darkness. Well, I was mixing this for mastering guys to hear. I thought that was the point. When I added about a 5db high shelf about 3500, it really sizzled without anything poking out too much. If you like the mix, check it out like that and see what you think.

THANK YOU FOR THE CRITS GUYS.
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Jason Thompson
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imdrecordings

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Re: IMP17 Beat J.Hall Discussion
« Reply #14 on: April 08, 2008, 11:43:31 am »

Quote:

Hey maybe I'm in the wrong business then. I put the two of them together and they sound completely different. I started out on the "copy J.'s mix" and found that there were some things I liked and things that I would change. Hence, the beat J.'s mix (not DIY). If I would have been copying the mix in the discussion thread, mine would have been brighter.

Anyone else think that or am I nuts?

I'm not accusing you of ANYTHING. It doesn't really matter, except to me personally. I know that setting your limiter a little differently is not going to make those types of changes. If indeed it does, then I need to re-learn and re-train my ears. I just don't see how it's possible


If you made the mix you intended to, it shouldn't matter what J did or didn't do.  Right?
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