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[j.hall]

chat it up.

[T. Goodwin]

I used a more of the mids and highs from the DI bass, and the lows from the mic, and panned them as far out as possible while still sounding coherent for the fancy bass parts. In the straight, hard hitting parts I automated the mic'd bass to center and muted the DI.

I also exported the mix twice - once with bus compression and once with expansion - and blended the two.

Other than that, pretty straightforward.

I look forward to seeing what I can learn here.

[imdrecordings]

I went for a KARP (self titled) album meets  ISIS (Celestial) album, kind of mix. Lots of hair and teeth! I thought the original mix was  to tame for a song called "The Executioner".  I'll post it tonight.

My weapons of choice were distortion, EQ and delay.
 
I can't wait for you guys to tear my mix apart!

p.s.- Thanks J,  This was a fun song to mix.

[j.hall]

curious if you guys noticed that the bass mic and bass guitar tracks were out of phase......

if you flip the phase on either one all the low end comes back in force.

[fullon21]

doh! heh didn't catch it myself.

[Greg Dixon]

j.hall wrote on Tue, 08 April 2008 12:30

curious if you guys noticed that the bass mic and bass guitar tracks were out of phase...... if you flip the phase on either one all the low end comes back in force.

Absolutely. The question then was which signal to invert....?

[beau]

definitely out of phase, but i didn't think they were completely 180.  

[maxim]

i like the first wave movement on bass drum and guitar to be positive

i understand it makes the initial speaker excursion travel towards the listener (if they have it wired up right)

[imdrecordings]

I heard the phasing, but that's nothing a high pass filter at 638 wont take care of, on one of the tracks.  I like the low end on the miked bass.

Both bass tones on their own sounded badass from the start, to me.  I  opted for the high-end in the DI, blended in with the miked.

I didn't use the Room Mics at all.

I'm not a competitive person.  I just made the mix I heard.
I only had about 2hrs to work with it and If I could go back, of course I might change a couple things.  

I wanted to make the ferociousness of the song really stand out in front.  I didn't find it necessary to preserve the "Tones".
I thought, "Fuck it, lets make this thing bite!"

The Vocals were well recorded too.  You should be proud of that.
The whole thing was recorded well.  I could tell by the way your tracks could handle being eqed and fk'd with.  Kudos!
There were some sibilance issues that I was having a tough time fighting, in some parts of the verse.

I didn't try and match yours, because I couldn't.  After pulling up the faders just to see what I had to mix with, I listened to your track and thought, "Sweet Jesus!  How could I ever create that from this?"  Your mix really does sound golden to my ears.  I'm absolutely flabbergasted how you achieved that.

Now let me wipe the ssh*t from my nose....

[osumosan]

maxim wrote on Mon, 07 April 2008 23:26

i like the first wave movement on bass drum and guitar to be positive i understand it makes the initial speaker excursion travel towards the listener (if they have it wired up right)

Has anyone here been able to actually hear the difference between the waveform going down initially and going up? I've tried flipping drum and bass tracks a few times and have never heard a difference. Is there some other advantage to the low end sending the speaker out initially?

[maxim]

to me, it's more of an intellectual decision

the difference is, most likely, hardly perceptible..

[garret]

Dang, mine was a couple minutes late due to uploading problems.... got started mixing late today... busy weekend with my mom in town and the new baby... excuses though, and I have no excuse really.  Shoulda been watching the clock more closely.  But hopefully J will grant me a few mins.

My mix is on the psw server, and here's the url...

http://www.prosoundweb.com/imp/files/imp17-myway-garret.mp3

[mdifazio]

j.hall wrote on Mon, 07 April 2008 21:30

curious if you guys noticed that the bass mic and bass guitar tracks were out of phase...... if you flip the phase on either one all the low end comes back in force.

I did not notice.  I'll go back and take a look at that.  

Thanks for hosting and sharing your tracks!

[j.hall]

it's not 180 out, but if you flip one (take your pick doesn't matter much really) the bottom end really comes alive.

there is no DI here.

bass player used a ric, one output went to his bass rig as he uses live, the other went to my guitar rig.  we mic'd up both and printed them.

[mdifazio]

Thanks, phase flip made a big difference.  I also went back and zoomed into the waveforms to line them up better.  I had a stereo chorus effect on the track I thought was a DI so the phase issue never registered.

[osumosan]

Here are my comments on the mixes in this section. There was a surpising amount of diversity in the mixes. Now let's go over to the "Beat J's mix" and see how the crew there did...

jhall
I'd want the mix to be less dark. I think the guitars need a bit of rage. The vox is good dark, though. But, yes, the mix is heavy!

mgaudio
drums are little papery
the reverb could use a lowpass
bass needs wrath
and the low mids are lacking
nice overall smooth sound and the snare has good impact

TGoodwin
The room verb is cool on the bass but confuses the drums a bit
The drums are also a bit constrained and often get lost.

fullon21
nice volume without pump.
Kick could be a notch dryer for clarity  

Teleric
Pumping OHs here and more bottom please
Nice mids on the guitars that is complimented by the bass (which needs a little more low end)

mdifazio
The mid size room diminishes the wrath and makes the mix a little cold. The dynamics may actually be a bit overdone in the first breakdown. There are too many different treatments here and it seems disjointed.

imdrecordings
Nice round bottom, the edit into the first chorus is off time. After the space, the guitar on the right is muted too long. The delay swamps the mix from time to time.  It can be long, but maybe a little lower in the mix. Vocals get lost in the chaotic parts later on. I like the overdone delay at the end of the vox.

Southboundloco
Reverb is pingy - could lowpass it.
Very high mid heavy mix.
Needs more low end.
I like the small room vox treatment.
Don't like the mute of the space; it's out of place and the performance of that break should be featured. When the noise guitar comes in after the call and response, the mix gets way too loud.
Pumping OHs here, too.
Do you have a buss compressor on that's not linked? It seems to do funny things to the image.

beau
This mix is a bit shrill and needs bottom.
Pumping OHs.
Bass needs bottom and the floor tom pokes out of the mix.

Garret
Bass a bit flat sounding and is stepping on a lot of other parts.
The mix has a cool rehearsal room feel, though via the drums and vox. The lowend sounds like it's coming through the walls (in a cool way).

[mdifazio]

Here are my notes.  Please take these with a grain of salt as my experience level is quite low and monitor situation is suboptimal.  

Hall - Toms ring too much in left channel.  Great guitar sound in downtempo section, a little too much vocal verb for my taste.  Awesome vox feedback delay on second downtempo section.  I like the clarity of the vocals.  Great overall balance.  I really grew to like this song over the week.  Thanks for the tinnitus -- your mix didn’t seem too dark when it was blasting in my car.

MGAudio - Vocals a bit wet for my taste.  Nice crunch on the downtempo.  Very nice overall balance.

T.Goodwin - Like the vocal treatment, a little sibilance.  Kind of slap effect on drums, “room” mic?  A little distracting in the exposed section.  Guitars seem thinner than other submissions on downtempo part, still very good.  Bass a little forward for my taste.  

Fullon -  Hot mix.  Great balance.  Toms a little too loud for my taste.  Great job.

Osumosan - Vocals a little low with too much verb/delay and too big a space.  That’s okay ‘cause you thought my room too small.  Think we just a different aesthetic concept for this.  Nice burn on the guitars.  Did you delay one of the tracks?  I really like what you did with the guitars after the break, really opened it up, I’d like to hear it maybe less L/R and more M/S?

Teleric - This is great, your hard work paid off.  Everything well balanced.  I’m curious how you eq’d the guitar parts, great detail, unlike some others not irritating when cranked.  Amp hum could use an edit on return to 7/4 time.

MDifazio - (my mix) In retrospect a more conventional bass would have probably served better.  Couldn’t get the guitar stabs to stab hard enough in first verse.  Downtempo drums overdone but I still like the sound in concept.  Wish my guitars sounded like Adam Miller’s.  Ringmod at break and vocal effect on call/response a cliche.  

Selfridge -  Didn’t care for the distortion on the vocals.  Dropped beat edit didn’t work for me.  Like the feedback concept but overdone.  

Southboundloco - drums way too wet for my taste.  Guitars sound a little thin or maybe too spread compared to others.  Overall mix balance good.  

Beau - I like your mix very much.  Good use of vocal delay.  Missing some detail on the downtempo guitars.  

Garret - Vocals too processed for my taste.  Wow nice guitar sound.  Love to hear about  how you did that.  Snare a little poppy.

[MGA]

J.Hall: Well what can I say, very muddy, totally wrong balance ... nah just kidding of course, to my ears it sounds pretty much perfect.

MGAudio (Me): First I deleted the snare sample files and then just pretty much mixed the whole thing, clean master, meaning no fx on the master (except dither, well actually not since I rendered directly to mp3). So in comparison to J.Halls mix (which I didn't try to match) my mix is a bit softer, has more highs and less bass.

T. Goodwin: I dislike the reverb very much, because it makes the mix lack in definition and makes instument sound diffuse, rather than defined and traceable. The reverber really doesn't suit the kick at all, it seems weak and doesn't really kick. The overall balance however is okay.

fullon21: The kick doesn't sound good. Balance is good.

osumosan: A touch too much reverb. Needs more stereo spread.

teleric: I don't like the raw, rattly bass in the intro,. I'd prefer it to be a bit softer (though with a song called Executioner who am I to expect softness). The Toms could have more spread, make them more gigantic in the mix. Guitars sound thin, could use more low end. But overall a very balanced clean mix (maybe too clean?, guitars kept in their own space, hence less low end in them hence thin sound, dunno). A good foundation for a good mastering.

mdifazio: More stereo. The snare doesn't sound good. The scratch/reverse fx in the break is too loud and (in its current apperance) doesn't suit the song. In one fill in the outro you can clearly hear how the snare switches its types, the snare general seems to bit of center to the left.

imdrecordings: WAY too loud for a mix.

southboundloco: Same as above, plus out of phase (get a goniometer).

beau: Could it be that the vox are a tiny bit of to the right? (Might just being me going crazy.) Could use a little bit more low end overall.

garret: I dont like the distorin on the vox. Mix is lacking some upper mids. Bass is really buzzy and the mix seems to have a rather overdriven vibe to it rather than clean.

The above only reflects my opinion. Value it as such, its just an opinion that someone has, not more, not less.

[imdrecordings]

MG,  

What do you mean by that?

Quote:

imdrecordings: WAY too loud for a mix.

I thought I could've backed down on some of the distortion I used (it was making the top-end a little too edgy) and I would've worked on the first chorus edit and the end guitar fade to be more seamless.  Only had 2hrs with this piece.
But that's about it.  

I don't mix for a Mastering Engineer.  Everytime I have, I've been sourly disappointed.    

Thanks.

[mdifazio]

MGAudio wrote on Thu, 10 April 2008 09:43

mdifazio: More stereo. The snare doesn't sound good. The scratch/reverse fx in the break is too loud and (in its current apperance) doesn't suit the song. In one fill in the outro you can clearly hear how the snare switches its types, the snare general seems to bit of center to the left.

MG, Good ears and thanks for the comments.  I had to do a lot of this with headphones and spot checking in the car which might account for imaging issues. (Plus I'm new at this)

When I brought up the "room" mics, I initially overcompressed and panned them.  Then I realized they were likely the shell mics described on a prior IMP and took them out of the mix.  I was thinking about ways to energize the downtempo part (which to me acted like a chorus) and when I brought the "room" mics back they were still panned.  Reminded me of a second drum set, or maybe a Beatles'esque sound for some reason which I thought kind of cool though admittedly genre busting.  Failed experiment I guess.

Couldn't stop myself from filling in the break. Someone did a reverse verb which was cool.

The snare fill was a problem as I didn't see it in the sample so I brought the "room" mics out for that and brought the snare mic way up.  I was considering replacing the snare but ran out of steam.  I did try to automate the kick sample volume based on down/upbeat but didn't seem to matter.

[garret]

As usual, I listened to these blind...
-Garret


Osomusan  – great tom tone... great guitars.. big and meaty.  Vocals seem a bit sibilant.  Frequency balance is good.. dynamics are nicely handled...   I'm not sure about the bass tone.  The sub bass is all kick, and the bass guitar seems to shirk its bottom duty... Good energy in the middle verse... head bangin.

Fullon  – bass is a weak in the intro.  Backup vocals at around 0:25 are over the top.. they make the tune a little comical.  (spinal tap).  Second verse sounds wussy after the huge chorus.  Drums are a bit flat.

beau – The guitars seem to have lost their bottom?  very tinny, and tiny.   Snare is a cardboardy, and dominant.  

mdifazio  –  tubby low end.. the kick is um, boingy.  Mix favors the vocals, which I generally like, but I think this mix needs more guitar power... some interesting effects trickery... Drums are a bit boxy at times, like the bit from 2:10 to 2:22. That snare could actually be a cardboard box.  I think from a microwave.

Scott Selfridge – tiny bass guitar...  needs some bottom.. . Balances are a little out of whack... The vocal is being stepped on... a little bit is okay in this style of music, but this sounds like a mistake.    Kick is tubby.  Cymbals are very splashy...  I'm getting a “through-the-wall” vibe from this.   You've buried one of my favorite elements.... that little melody in the bass, 0:24 – 0:45 or so... it's there but very quiet in your mix.  To me that bit is essential.

garret – hmmm I think this is mine.   Yah.   Listening to it after the rest.. it is an odd child, but I like it.   I'd buy that record.  Definitely achieves a live vibe which I was trying for..  starts very narrow compared to many, but I like the blow out for the chorus.   Nicely balanced in its own way... rather conservative compared to some of the other mixes.   I like my ending (cut to chamber verb tail)...

jomans – lots of high end on the vocals.  Scooped spectral balance.. some low bass, and some 10+hz sparkle, but everything else is wildly inconsistent.  What's your monitoring situation?  You need to focus on getting the mids right.  

tgoodwin – ill defined... a mash of oddly treated things... The bass is missing the fundamental.. I'm hearing sub bass and clickly stuff, but nothing in the 100hz band...    this is all rather flat, like you've hammered down all the powerful bits.  Eg: listen for that little bass melody in the 0:20 – 0:45 range and compare your mix to some others... in your mix, you almost can't find it.

mgaudio – this works for me, in its own way.  Okay, I have a few things... the bass tone is weird... the kick is detached from the other drums (it doesn't sound like part of the kit.)  The song dynamics are a bit flat... this doesn't make my head bang as much as it should.  

evilsimp17 – a little cheap sounding... snare is dominant, and sounds like cardboard... did you only use the replaced snare track?  

[osumosan]

mdifazio wrote on Tue, 08 April 2008 23:15

Osumosan - Vocals a little low with too much verb/delay and too big a space.  That’s okay ‘cause you thought my room too small.  Think we just a different aesthetic concept for this.  Nice burn on the guitars.  Did you delay one of the tracks?  I really like what you did with the guitars after the break, really opened it up, I’d like to hear it maybe less L/R and more M/S?

Thanks for the comments. The guitars don't have any delay, but I put a rotor effect on the guitar on the left after the bass break. Regarding the wide guitar image, I dropped the center of the guitars a bit to widen the image thinking that the bass was handling the center. For this kind of track I like to mix the vox into the band so you can play it loud and I sent the vox to the reverb AFTER a delay, which is a kind of space I really like for a tribal feel. Maybe too much!

garret wrote on Fri, 11 April 2008 02:03

Osomusan  – great tom tone... great guitars.. big and meaty.  Vocals seem a bit sibilant.  Frequency balance is good.. dynamics are nicely handled...   I'm not sure about the bass tone.  The sub bass is all kick, and the bass guitar seems to shirk its bottom duty... Good energy in the middle verse... head bangin.

Ah, yes, I didn't check the phase on the bass. Nailed! I hope you'd like it with more bottom. I spent some time reamping it for more wrath.  I thought I did tame the sibilance in the vox. There is a de-esser on the track and I low-passed the reverb at 6200Hz although I still hear some hi end on the verb, maybe that's what you're hearing as sibilance? I de-essed just before the point that intelligibility was lost.