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[Plush]

As usual the detail sticklers come out---and they should. I only have info and commentary on things I have seen and discussed with actual participants.

I should not have said that people at Neumann claim no difference in gold and ALU M50 capsules. Upon refreshing my recollection (thank you Johnny Cochran) I recall that the people I talked to were at  TELDEC and DECCA. They were  discussing the various M50 models. Both places took delivery of gold capsuled M50's and then converted them to ALU capsule versions. This work was usually done at DECCA for both companies. No, I can't post anything because these were conversations in person not something on a website or in a document.

In the FLEA 49 the tube is an AC701k and the capsule is a Thiersch version of the M7 capsule. What HO?? Believe it or not I got a good one (you guys bash Thiersch all the time.)  I think FLEA gets select versions of capsules from Thiersch. It sounds good and it sounds authentic.  

I don't know what Wunder does to the FLEA parts it gets. Please ask them. I know that there are extensive FLEA elements in Wunder and that they are not re-inventing the wheel. Maybe they are like the old Neumann in that they are real mic people, real module people AND real console people.

Lastly, Klaus, your commentary about Faulkner is suspect and curious.  It is certainly not Faulkner's neglecting maintenance that causes any faults in his stable of M50's.  I'd venture instead that it is heavy usage of his M50's and his travel schedule that is the culprit.  He didn't go into detail because he knows that I know that 50+ year old gear can develop problems. We all know that. One things for sure, Tony's not a mope who beats his gear or neglects inspection and spending money on having his main set-ups serviced.

For me it is only the sound that counts, not the look of the mic.
I know, too,  that in our current climate, there are those who want a trophy and a "look."  

It's a big world, so I have to believe that there is room for both interests and pursuits.

[J.J. Blair]

Hudson, I don't know that we bash the Thiersch M7s.  Last I checked, a bunch of us were going to do a group buy.  

[Plush]

J.J.---please do a search on here and you will see who bashes the Thiersch capsules.
The bashing is extensive and relentless.

In any case, and getting back to the original poster's questions, I can only offer my opinion that it is the source (the ensemble) that is making the sound, not the mic that is making the sound. Therefore, a different ensemble/arrangement/hall will make more difference than changing out the mics on the chosen set-up.  

[Alan Meyerson]

Plush wrote on Thu, 17 April 2008 14:48

In any case, and getting back to the original poster's questions, I can only offer my opinion that it is the source (the ensemble) that is making the sound, not the mic that is making the sound. Therefore, a different ensemble/arrangement/hall will make more difference than changing out the mics on the chosen set-up.

Begging to disagree but I feel that it's the sum of all the parts that make the sound. The players, the room, the perspective of the engineer/producer,etc ad infinitum. Certainly you could change players. That's not my point in this case. I just wanted to start a conversation of alternates to the tried and true.

Unfortunately, I started my microphone collection too late. I couldn't afford real M50's
so I bought M150's and they have served me well. I also have 3 KHE's and alot of assorted SCC's. There really are no good M50's out there any more, and even if there were the price would be ridiculous.

So that's the fun here. Figuring out how to re-invent a very good wheel. I've had alot of good luck with it, if you've heard any of my flim scores.

But let's keep the converation going. It's fun.

[Alan Meyerson]

[quote title=Alan Meyerson wrote on Thu, 17 April 2008 18:28]

Plush wrote on Thu, 17 April 2008 14:48

So that's the fun here. Figuring out how to re-invent a very good wheel. I've had alot of good luck with it, if you've heard any of my flim scores.

I hope that doesn't come acros as egotistical. I didn't mean it that way

[Klaus Heyne]

Plush wrote on Thu, 17 April 2008 06:48

J.J.---please do a search on here and you will see who bashes the Thiersch capsules. The bashing is extensive and relentless.

I take responsibility here. 'Bashing' and 'relentless are a bit over the top, but the gist is right, nevertheless:

Thiersch's M7 PVC jobs were not good in the past. Similarly, his large diaphragm Mylar work, at least until a year ago, when I last tested his U87 re-diaphragming job, on a couple of Robert Crash's eBay products, was disappointingly mediocre (to me!), in regards to timbre or consistency compared to a Neumann capsule. His attempts at CK12s were even less convincing.

On the other hand, his metal diaphragm work on KM54, KM56, and SM2 capsules is pretty good, considering that this at least as hard of work (I find) as doing a large diaphragm Mylar capsule, and I gladly (and often) have used his reskinning metal diaphragm jobs, when I had to replace original Neumann diaphragms.

I am eager to revise my opinions. I understand that he has new people working for him, and I am sure, he gets better with time, like most of us.

One more comment: I have not felt yet the need to 'recalibrate' my expectations, in order to reflect the currently abysmal state of aftermarket diaphragm manufacturing for vintage capsules. Under this light, Thiersch is second only in quality to Haun.
But ultimately, I compare every attempt by these manufacturers to the standards that Neumann and AKG set. Nothing short of it.

[ETM Dude]

[quote title=Alan Meyerson wrote on Thu, 17 April 2008 11:00]

Alan Meyerson wrote on Thu, 17 April 2008 18:28

Plush wrote on Thu, 17 April 2008 14:48 So that's the fun here. Figuring out how to re-invent a very good wheel. I've had alot of good luck with it, if you've heard any of my flim scores. I hope that doesn't come acros as egotistical. I didn't mean it that way

Hi Alan,

I have to admit I've been a lurker on this forum for a little while, however it is your score mixes that brought me here!  Hope not to come across as a too much a  fanboy, but from a composer perspective your sound (John Powell mixes in particular) is the benchmark I constantly go back to.  Interesting thread, and indeed fun stuff!

[davebl]

Quote:

.J.---please do a search on here and you will see who bashes the Thiersch capsules. The bashing is extensive and relentless.

Only in the last couple of years have I had reason to use STM and I feel I have to say that on the occasions I have used STM that the work has been to a very good standard, promptly carried out and at reasonable cost. I found the company to be courteous and helpful in-spite of my lack of German.

I am not a mic tech but have worked in professional audio for 30 years now although audio forms only part of my current work. On comparing the refurbished or repaired capsules with known good factory examples they have been near identical from listening tests. I've had both Gefell M7's and nickel capsules repaired and have been pleased with the results.

I can't compare to other mic capsule repair companies as I have not used any excepting the mic manufacturers themselves. I only speak as I find.

Dave Blackham
UK

[raal]

so has anyone heard a FLEA, Wunder and/or M150 side by side? thank you.

[Alan Meyerson]

Klaus,
If your lurking around, what would you think about the idea of retooling my KM 54's and building the caps into a perspect?
One of the mic manufacturers I have a relationship with is anxious to give it a try.
He promises not to hurt the original mic and be able to put it back together in case I don't like the results.
Thoughts?
Alan

[J.J. Blair]

Alan, you know though that the K54 is nickel and the K53s used in the perspex were  aluminum, right?  ( know there were other membranes used, but the M50s that everybody loves were aluminum.)

Not that you wouldn't like the sound of the nickel, but I was just pointing that out.  

And did you ever get to try those Wunders M50s?

[Barry Hufker]

You wouldn't want to use the 54 in a sphere as it is a cardioid.  Suffocating the rear entry to the diaphragm in that mic should make it a pretty awful omni.  You could try it with the 53.

My suggestion would be to try to keep the M50's ratio of diameter size to sphere size no matter which mic you use for the experiment.

[Alan Meyerson]

sorry guys, I meant 53...typo
oops

[Alan Meyerson]

J.J. Blair wrote on Sat, 30 August 2008 19:29

And did you ever get to try those Wunders M50s?

Wunder never supplied me demos. I gave up/

[klaukholm]

I just got a reply from flea that I would have to pay for the mics in full (15k+ euros) in order to try them. I personally have a problem with this, particularly in these credit challenged times.
I guess this makes the choice easy, we likely will get three tlm50 to augment our collection of M150.

edit: to be clear, they do offer a full refund. This is sort of a mute point here anyways as that is required by law anyway. I believe the law states 30 days for sales not made in person, i.e. internet and phone purchases.