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Author Topic: Sennheiser MD 409, Grundig GDSM 200 differences?  (Read 70226 times)

simolino

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Re: Sennheiser MD 409, Grundig GDSM 200 differences?
« Reply #15 on: April 04, 2008, 01:02:14 PM »

hopsing wrote on Mon, 31 March 2008 07:57


I am surprised, that the housing has such an influence on pattern and frequency response.


The housing is responsible for a huge part of sound especially when it concerns a "open back" capsule like the ones of the 408/409 .If the rear "sound entry" is closed it will cut off a considerable amount of bass.This idea is actually used in many microphones to achieve the bass roll off effect. The most known mic making use of this is probably the AKG D19 .. while turning the bass off ring it actually closes physically the rear opening of the capsule. AKG uses this principle also on several philips branded mics to achieve the omni/cardioid effect.

the 408`s capsule`s back is not totally free, the 409`s is
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J.J. Blair

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Re: Sennheiser MD 409, Grundig GDSM 200 differences?
« Reply #16 on: April 04, 2008, 03:07:53 PM »

I believe that the RE15 uses this method for roll off as well.

Also, that lack of rear entry might explain the hyper cardioid, and cardioid pattern differences.  Less sound entering from the rear of the capsule, out of phase.  If it all enters from the front, it will be more in phase.  
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They say the heart of Rock & Roll is still beating, which is amazing if you consider all the blow it's done over the years.

"The Internet enables pompous blowhards to interact with other pompous blowhards in a big circle jerk of pomposity." - Bill Maher

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rodabod

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Re: Sennheiser MD 409, Grundig GDSM 200 differences?
« Reply #17 on: April 07, 2008, 08:15:32 PM »

If any of you guys are up for an MDS1:

 http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1& ;amp ;item=110238228368&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=001

I already have one, and it looks like this one may well go cheap judging by the listing. They sell for
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Roddy Bell

panman

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Re: Sennheiser MD 409, Grundig GDSM 200 differences?
« Reply #18 on: April 08, 2008, 11:02:21 AM »

simolino wrote on Fri, 04 April 2008 19:02


The housing is responsible for a huge part of sound especially when it concerns a "open back" capsule like the ones of the 408/409 .If the rear "sound entry" is closed it will cut off a considerable amount of bass.This idea is actually used in many microphones to achieve the bass roll off effect. The most known mic making use of this is probably the AKG D19 .. while turning the bass off ring it actually closes physically the rear opening of the capsule. AKG uses this principle also on several philips branded mics to achieve the omni/cardioid effect.
the 408`s capsule`s back is not totally free, the 409`s is


This is what I meant in my previous posting. How can MD408 be a hypercardioid if the back is closed more than in MD409, which is a cardioid? Correct me, if  am wrong, but should it not be closer to omni then? And going from cardioid towards hypercardioid normally don`t cause any bass rolloff. On the contrary,the proximity-effect becomes stronger. Or am I missing somehing?
I was not able to find any info about MD408 in my files, but there is another mic by Sennheiser looking almost the same: MD418, which is hypecardioid. Apparently the same mic, but the front and rear halves are separated by a larger diameter disc. This is another not so common a way of achieving hypercardioid, but the principle is the same making the waves from the rear going a longer way.
So it would be nice, if someone could say from knowledge what it(MD408)is!
Regards,
       Esa
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E.T.

J.J. Blair

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Re: Sennheiser MD 409, Grundig GDSM 200 differences?
« Reply #19 on: April 08, 2008, 01:04:31 PM »

Oops.  Feel free to delete this to avoid confusion, Klaus.
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studio info

They say the heart of Rock & Roll is still beating, which is amazing if you consider all the blow it's done over the years.

"The Internet enables pompous blowhards to interact with other pompous blowhards in a big circle jerk of pomposity." - Bill Maher

"The negative aspects of this business, not only will continue to prevail, but will continue to accelerate in madness. Conditions aren't going to get better, because the economics of rock and roll are getting closer and closer to the economics of Big Business America." - Bill Graham

hopsing

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Re: Sennheiser MD 409, Grundig GDSM 200 differences?
« Reply #20 on: April 08, 2008, 01:59:49 PM »

Hi J.J.
According to Beyer it is the other way around, md408 hypercardioid and md409 cardioid. But since I could not find any polar pattern measurement diagramm on the net for the 408,  Beyer could have just thought that hypercard. is a proper sounding description for a conference speech microphone, while for a more all around mic like the 409 card. is just right, and in reality there is no difference. I cannot compare, I have no 409.
Out of curiosity I opened the 408 and found the rear to be pretty open, not completly, the gooseneck joint closes a part of the capsule at a little distance. But that should rather lead to a more omni mic.
Well that is all rather confusing...
Thanks anyway
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J.J. Blair

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Re: Sennheiser MD 409, Grundig GDSM 200 differences?
« Reply #21 on: April 08, 2008, 04:49:29 PM »

You mean Sennheiser.  I'm getting all confused and turned around now, re card and hyper card.  I'm going to STFU, until I get a good night's sleep and get on the same page as everybody else.  


Embarassed
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studio info

They say the heart of Rock & Roll is still beating, which is amazing if you consider all the blow it's done over the years.

"The Internet enables pompous blowhards to interact with other pompous blowhards in a big circle jerk of pomposity." - Bill Maher

"The negative aspects of this business, not only will continue to prevail, but will continue to accelerate in madness. Conditions aren't going to get better, because the economics of rock and roll are getting closer and closer to the economics of Big Business America." - Bill Graham

panman

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Re: Sennheiser MD 409, Grundig GDSM 200 differences?
« Reply #22 on: April 08, 2008, 06:26:24 PM »

hopsing wrote on Tue, 08 April 2008 19:59

Beyer could have just thought that hypercard. is a proper sounding description for a conference speech microphone



Could be so, but I believe more they just mixed up MD408 with MD418. Why? I found this: http://cgi.ebay.de/Sennheiser-MD-418-U-4-Dynamic-Microphone- T_W0QQitemZ270226719099QQihZ017QQcategoryZ26507QQssPageNameZ WDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
You find more pictures there, but here is one:
index.php/fa/8441/0/
One photo is showing the box end enlarged. There is a symbol indicating it to be a hypercadioid, but could be a supercardioid too.
Regards,
       Esa
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E.T.

J.J. Blair

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Re: Sennheiser MD 409, Grundig GDSM 200 differences?
« Reply #23 on: April 08, 2008, 06:30:15 PM »

Here's the 408.


index.php/fa/8442/0/
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They say the heart of Rock & Roll is still beating, which is amazing if you consider all the blow it's done over the years.

"The Internet enables pompous blowhards to interact with other pompous blowhards in a big circle jerk of pomposity." - Bill Maher

"The negative aspects of this business, not only will continue to prevail, but will continue to accelerate in madness. Conditions aren't going to get better, because the economics of rock and roll are getting closer and closer to the economics of Big Business America." - Bill Graham

simolino

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Re: Sennheiser MD 409, Grundig GDSM 200 differences?
« Reply #24 on: April 09, 2008, 10:26:36 AM »

First of all forget the md418 as this is a totally different mic.
Here couple of info pages from old original sennheiser booklets regarding the md408, mds1 and the later MD409-U3, unfortunately could not find anything of the original MD409-N .
I am affraid only that sennheiser was not quite accurate at the time with this kind of info sheets, a tiny example is the info sheet about the 408 and 405 shown in the same page, while the 405 has a totally different capsule with an extra humbacking coil on top.
So looking at old schematics or data sheets will just make things more complicated.
Back on topic now..
The MD409 has the very same capsule as the MDS1,Grundig GDSM200, MD407 and Echolette ES14 ,All these microphones sound and respond identical to the MD409.
if your mic bares the capsule that is shown below then it is a 409 one , note that these MD409 capsules are markt with a 402 number.
Several ebay sellers claim that their microphones (i.e md408 , md403 and sometimes some other ones) have the same capsule as the 409 but this can not be true unless their capsules are replaced of course.
There were no "B`s" or "seconds" going to Grundig or Echolette as some people think, cause one thing is certain and thats that for sennheiser it had to be O.K no matter for whom they made it for.
Hope this helps.



index.php/fa/8447/0/
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simolino

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Re: Sennheiser MD 409, Grundig GDSM 200 differences?
« Reply #25 on: April 09, 2008, 10:28:52 AM »

index.php/fa/8448/0/
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simolino

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Re: Sennheiser MD 409, Grundig GDSM 200 differences?
« Reply #26 on: April 09, 2008, 10:30:23 AM »

index.php/fa/8449/0/
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simolino

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Re: Sennheiser MD 409, Grundig GDSM 200 differences?
« Reply #27 on: April 09, 2008, 10:31:36 AM »

index.php/fa/8450/0/
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simolino

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Re: Sennheiser MD 409, Grundig GDSM 200 differences?
« Reply #28 on: April 09, 2008, 10:33:10 AM »

index.php/fa/8451/0/
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J.J. Blair

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Re: Sennheiser MD 409, Grundig GDSM 200 differences?
« Reply #29 on: April 09, 2008, 01:23:47 PM »

Nick, thanks for those.  I'll go back to what I said on the first page, before I got overtired and started contradicting myself on this page, LOL: Anyway, hypercard tends to cause bass rolloff in my experience.  Perhaps the frequency differences are due to this.  
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They say the heart of Rock & Roll is still beating, which is amazing if you consider all the blow it's done over the years.

"The Internet enables pompous blowhards to interact with other pompous blowhards in a big circle jerk of pomposity." - Bill Maher

"The negative aspects of this business, not only will continue to prevail, but will continue to accelerate in madness. Conditions aren't going to get better, because the economics of rock and roll are getting closer and closer to the economics of Big Business America." - Bill Graham
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