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Author Topic: the vulture pack dilemma  (Read 8971 times)

otek

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the vulture pack dilemma
« on: May 21, 2004, 08:13:36 AM »

Ok, so that subject title may have thrown you a bit, but it comes to bear. In a roundabout sort of way.


Here's a thing that happened to me recently. I work at a studio which houses multiple writing and production entities. We work together on projects all the time.

I was asked by one of these to do some drum tracking for his current album project. A session drummer was contacted, we shook on a price, and agreed on one afternoon's work of setup, and a day of tracking. Needless to say, I gave him a pretty good rate.

In the middle of tracking this drummer, another guy from one of the writing teams (we can call him Humpty) approached him about playing on a couple of songs on their upcoming record, "since the drums are already set up and ready to go". I was insidiously left out of the equation. When I approached him about making a deal for this part of the job, I noticed he kind of avoided the topic, but sort of gave me the feeling that it would be no problem.

This was my first mistake.

I went to work on modifying the sound to fit the style of those additional songs. I then sat through the session, and assisted when necessary.

After tracking this drummer (who got paid according to his standard rates) I again approached Humpty about actually getting paid for my work on the drums.

Humpty: "Well, how many hours have you worked? One? Two?"

Otek: "Over two hours, but I also did the setup".

H: "well, you already got paid for the setup by your client".

O: "I guess that's one way of looking at it. Another way of looking at it would be that you just got great-sounding drums on two songs. But ok, give me $$$$ (very decent deal) and I'm ok with it".

H: "That's pretty expensive".

O: "No it's not, especially considering you got drums done for two songs".

H: "Well, you have to see our perspective. We don't have that kind of budget for this production. It was a matter of doing it because it was already there, or not doing in at all".

O: "So you are basically giving me an offer I can't refuse"?

H: "I wouldn't call it that. Listen, I'll give you $$$$ (about half of the asking price).

O: (seeing the battle lost, grudgingly complies)

(conversation paraphrased and edited for length)

Heres a problem with many facets. I think we can all agree that I should have gone after the guys more about my fee. I was trying to be helpful and ended up being stupid.

But what was I to do? They had agreed with the drummer, and with the producer of the other project. If I had actually gotten them to talk budget at a time when I still had a say-so, and they would have disagreed, the only way to enforce that would have been to actually take down all the mics and zero the console. That would probably have cost the drummer his gig, plus I would have come out looking like this large-type asshole, since I work with these people all the time. Plus, I would have caused a scene of sorts in front of my clients, which is bad juju daddy in my book.

What would you guys have done in my situation, when colleagues "do the vulture thing" and scavenge off your hard work? I feel humiliated and hose-jobbed. Especially considering all the gigs I have roped in for that production team in the past. But I also feel I acted properly towards my clients and the studio drummer.

I guess the lesson is to never trust anyone, even your colleagues whom you meet and work with every day. I think they were desperate to get those drums done, saw an opportunity and took advantage of it.
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Fibes

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Re: the vulture pack dilemma
« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2004, 10:00:27 AM »

You did the best you could. Move on. Yeah, easier said than done... i hate it when shit like that happens.


I do this shit all the time in my oneroom studio as a service to my clients on the cheap. If a drum session comes in I tryto get another one with a session dude directly after it. So in essence I'm cheating the first dudes a bit but my philosophy is that if I'm tracking 10 songs with (say) 2 hours setup and I do a couple singles the next day for another project, the value is still there. Unless a client insists on recording one tune at a time and tearing down/setting up several times over the course of an album they get a bit of free setup time in these scenarios. Kinda a bit of discount sharing for efficiency...
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Re: the vulture pack dilemma
« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2004, 10:14:40 AM »

otek wrote on Fri, 21 May 2004 05:13

I guess the lesson is to never trust anyone, even your colleagues whom you meet and work with every day. I think they were desperate to get those drums done, saw an opportunity and took advantage of it.
I would especially your colleagues. More often than not in my experience is that people who you see alot but don't really know will always attempt to take advantage of you. Used to happen to me alot to the point that other people stepped in because I was too nice. I will go out of my way to help when its a favor, but I do let it be known its a favor and not to expect it next time.  If people don't have the budget for something then they need to be forthright about those limitations. How many folks think its right to eat a meal you can't afford and walk away from the table without paying? Ive discovered that using the word favor implies special treatment and at some point you will get a return on that non-monitary investment.  

You can always mail an invoice to Humpty for services rendered Smile


Peace,
Dennis
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j.hall

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Re: the vulture pack dilemma
« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2004, 10:15:13 AM »

otek wrote on Fri, 21 May 2004 07:13


But what was I to do? They had agreed with the drummer, and with the producer of the other project. If I had actually gotten them to talk budget at a time when I still had a say-so, and they would have disagreed, the only way to enforce that would have been to actually take down all the mics and zero the console. That would probably have cost the drummer his gig, plus I would have come out looking like this large-type asshole, since I work with these people all the time. Plus, I would have caused a scene of sorts in front of my clients, which is bad juju daddy in my book.



there are polite, yet firm, ways to zero a console and "clean up" after a gig, in front of your client and coworkers.

and then there is the "screw you" way to zero out the room.

personally, i would have found a good stopping place, requested that humpty have a conversation with me outside.  i'd explain my concept of "free time"......which is something like this....

"if you choose to not pay, this session instantly becomes part of my free time.  and as i love recording and helping out, my free time is invaluable.  i could be home with my son and wife.  i could be drinking beer, watching TV, hanging out with friends....basically, i could be doing whatever the hell i want to do.  so, if you choose to not retain my services for a fee, then i'll be the one deciding how long i stay, if i stay at all, and how much i'm willing to do."

no need to be rude about any of it, it's simple economics.  you want my services, you pay the fee.  if you don't pay the fee, i'll just go about my day utilizing my free time as i see fit.

the flip side is, you have to know when it's time to "take one for the team"

if you feel compelled enough, you simply head back to the control room and start pulling patch cables.  carry on conversations and such, be pleasant.  if they don't stop you and offer to pay, move on to the console, then the mics and mic cables and stands.

i wouldn't worry about the drummer, he wants to get paid too and probably would pack his stuff up if they pulled his fee as well.  or at least, he'd assess the situation on his own to see if it was worth doing a free gig, just as you need to.

to me, free gigs have to do one of two things

1.  be extremely enjoyable, and/or
2.  have a foreseeable increase in work after that gig.  nothing promised or contractual, just a foreseeable gain.

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mwagener

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Re: the vulture pack dilemma
« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2004, 10:23:12 AM »

Ola

you already identified yourself what the problem was, so I would file this one under: "experience" and let it go. Next time make sure you have the financial arrangement nailed down (prefferably in writing) before you start working. I think it's pretty bad taste on Humpty's end to barge into a session like that and would recommend setting the ground rules with him, so it doesn't happen again. In fact, I probably would never work with the guy again, if at all possible.

bblackwood

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Re: the vulture pack dilemma
« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2004, 10:31:33 AM »

Also, by trying to get paid for setup twice, you probably set the guy's guard up...
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j.hall

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Re: the vulture pack dilemma
« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2004, 10:45:32 AM »

mwagener wrote on Fri, 21 May 2004 09:23

I think it's pretty bad taste on Humpty's end to barge into a session like that and would recommend setting the ground rules with him, so it doesn't happen again.


that sort of thing DRIVES ME NUTS

i book a room here in town for tracking, i pay for lock outs.  the studio owner is also my tech and i have a pretty good relationship as a friend with him.  he comes in and out with out making a peep or disturbance.  the problem is.  with out fail, whoever is working in studio B walks in and out of my lock out as well.  and every time, they open the door, come in, and just start talking......UUUUGGGGGGGGGGGGG

studio etiquette................
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otek

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Re: the vulture pack dilemma
« Reply #7 on: May 22, 2004, 02:50:05 AM »

I've pretty much decided to let this one go, even before I posted here. Thanks a lot to all of you for advice and consolation though.

I will definitely make sure next time I have everything worked out in advance. But with people you've worked with for years, you just don't think such vigilance would be necessary.

Just to make this clear - Humpty wasn't disrupting the session. He politely approached the drummer during a coffee break.

What ticked me off was that he didn't ask me about it, and didn't spontaneously offer to compensate me in any way. If I hadn't brought it up, I wouldn't have gotten one cent.

And that's really what this is all about. If they had just asked me if I would help them out, I would have done it right away. My problem is being stuck in a boat with no oars.
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Ross Hogarth

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Re: the vulture pack dilemma
« Reply #8 on: May 22, 2004, 05:27:56 AM »

I think you should invite the Forum to Sweden and we'll all come over and kick your colleague's ass .... cool ?
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otek

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Re: the vulture pack dilemma
« Reply #9 on: May 22, 2004, 09:57:30 AM »

Ross,

You are welcome any time!   Wink  Mi casa es su casa.

cheers,
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Etch-A-Sketch

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Re: the vulture pack dilemma
« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2004, 03:34:26 PM »

I never trust anyone when it comes to money/work...not even friends. Actually, what's the line from the movie 'The Italian Job'...

"I trust everyone, it's the devil inside them I don't trust".

I've gotten screwed out of A LOT of money on a record deal I helped setup for a friend.  I should have gotten a finder's fee and I was supposed to engineer the whole album.  Instead I engineered parts of a few of the songs (which the producer only paid me half my hourly rate) and I didn't get any finder's fee.  I got pushed out of it...and my friend of many years just kind of let it happen (I think he didn't want ot rock the boat since it was a huge record deal and he was also getting a lot of money)...all the while the producer was telling me he was my friend and he was gonna hook me up.  NOT!

That was my first experience with L.A.  It happened about 6 months after I moved here.  And, honestly, I actually could kind of see it coming, but didn't have enough confidence or connections (or a lawyer for that matter) to stop it.  But it's usually something you need to go through in order to really learn from it.  It was definitely a good thing for me to go through in the end.

Otek, in your situation, I would say it's the producer of the original session's fault.  You should never have charged this other guy money for your services.  You were hired by the original producer to record drums for that day.  If the producer works out an arrangement with another producer to piggy-back some more songs at the end then great, but you charge the original producer for the extra time...and the other producer can reimburse the original producer.

trying to charging the second producer for setup time was probably the wrong thing to say/do in my opinion.  Like he said, you already set it up and someone else already paid you for it.  But that's exactly why I think you should have charged the original producer for your extra time because technically the session is his and he is in charge of it/paying for it.  AND!!!  He already agreed on your rate...so now he can't turn around and say, "ok well for these last couple hours when we are doing this other guys stuff I am only going to pay you half your rate."  There's no way, he already agreed on your rate and then it's up to him to get his money back from the other producer.

anyway...that's how I would have handled the situation.  I also like J. hall's comments too.  Explaining the concept of "Free time".  That's great, i'll have to remember that!

Anyway, chalk it up to experience...and one thing I will say...because you let this guy get away with this once, HE IS GOING TO TRY AND DO IT AGAIN.  Maybe not tommorrow or next month, it could be two years from now...but at some point he will try and pull the same kind of thing with you.  So keep your guard up and don't cut him anymore deals.  And also watch out for any of his friends/co-workers.  Since they know he got away with it...others that are affiliated with him will most likely also try and get away with something like that given the opportunity.

Anyway...this is just my two cents...
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Re: the vulture pack dilemma
« Reply #11 on: May 25, 2004, 11:44:05 AM »

Etch-A-Sketch wrote on Sat, 22 May 2004 14:34


anyway...that's how I would have handled the situation.  I also like J. hall's comments too.  Explaining the concept of "Free time".  That's great, i'll have to remember that!




hahahahahaha

use it all you like!!!

it's not a great way to "get paid"
but i find it very usefull in getting other people to relate their daily jobs to mine.

in the age of pirated software and "basement" studios, some where along the way bands have directly associated recording, with FREE!!!

i've just got frustrated trying to explain why it's not free of charge.  the "free time" thing just hit me one day and it works, EVERY ONE can relate to free time........cause every one has it, and enjoys doing whatever the hell they want.
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dwoz

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Re: the vulture pack dilemma
« Reply #12 on: June 01, 2004, 01:29:19 AM »




let me get this straight...

1) You did a setup and recorded a session, and got paid.


2) Client #1 got good value for thier dollar.


3) Client #2 got two tracks posted without having to do a setup.


4) drummer billed several extra hours over-and-above his original call.


5) you billed several extra hours over-and-above your original call.


Sounds to me, in a simple sort of way, that everyone came out ahead.  Or am I missing something?

Yes, I'm missing the double-dipping on the setup time.

Could become the norm...producers who only have a track or two each to produce, pooling resources to cut their setup costs in half.  What do you have when your setup time is longer than your session time?  a bummer.  What do you have when your setup time is split two or more ways?  a collaboration.

Sorry to sound unsympathetic...but it sounds to me like things were working like they should.

dwoz

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otek

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Re: the vulture pack dilemma
« Reply #13 on: June 02, 2004, 03:29:15 AM »

dwoz wrote on Tue, 01 June 2004 07:29

5) you billed several extra hours over-and-above your original call.



Actually, I didn't get anywhere near what I usually charge for drums on two tunes.... My beef is the fact that when people enlist the recording services of me, or you, or anyone, they don't just pay for you to sit there and hit Record.... You can train a chimp to do that. They are paying for your sound. I'm sorry, don't mean to sound pompous here, but it's the truth. I have had people call me and suggest paying me my hourly fee to set up the mics and get my sound, and then put the intern on tracking the thing. Not my scene. How long does it take me to set up and dial in a decent sound? I would say, anywhere from half an hour to three hours is a pretty good guess, depending on how serious the gig is, maybe a little more if it's an album. So they pay me for one or two hours, send me home, have someone else track the drums at minimum wage, pay much less and still get a great sound? I don't know about you, but to me, that's just plain wrong. If they want me, I am engineering the whole thing, or they can get someone else.

Let's face it, not doing the tracking yourself has several drawbacks. If it turns out great, you have just sold yourself cheap. They're skimming the cream.

If it doesn't sound great, say because there's no continuous control over the sound (and it may deteriorate pretty quickly unless you are constantly in there tweaking), your name is still gonna be on the cover, and then it turns into a bad advertising on top of bad pay.

In this particular case, I had already gotten paid well by my client, but it's a matter of principle, too - especially when they handle it in such a way as to leave me no options and no room for negotiation.

So, am I a pompous asshole whose head has grown just a tad too big, or is there some logic to this? What do you guys think?
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Fibes

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Re: the vulture pack dilemma
« Reply #14 on: June 02, 2004, 09:14:00 AM »

I'm with ya' Ola.

The double charging for the setup time isn't a part of my world as i stated earlier but that's because it's MY room and MY rules. Cutting back on setup costs on some smaller projects yields better end product for us and our clients. I do understand the value of your time and experience, they took advantage of that. Consider yourself lucky, there are some engineers that a complete zeroing of the room would make for a better sound, they dug your chops, be happy with the fact that you have the right to have a big head.  Shocked
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otek

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Re: the vulture pack dilemma
« Reply #15 on: June 02, 2004, 11:02:24 AM »

Fibes wrote on Wed, 02 June 2004 15:14

The double charging for the setup time isn't a part of my world as i stated earlier...


I didn't quite see it as "double charging".... more like "asking a reasonable per-title price" and not getting pushed into making a deal I am not satisfied with. Especially when I tweaked the sound to suit their project, it was no "set-and-forget" situation.

But I do see your point.
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j.hall

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Re: the vulture pack dilemma
« Reply #16 on: June 02, 2004, 11:04:10 AM »

i have yet to ask a carpenter, painter, plumber, electrician, landscaper, millworker, tech, etc..... to do anything for me for free.  i may negotiate a bulk rate for service rendered, but that happens long before the actual work begins

so why has recording become something people feel is their birth rite to get for free????

i'm providing a service just like those listed above.  i haven't heard anyone i know, or know of, ask any of the professional disciplines above, to work for free.

if you want your hardwood floors re-finished, you expect to pay.

you want to make a record, you expect it to be free......expectations are really annoying!!!

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Fibes

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Re: the vulture pack dilemma
« Reply #17 on: June 02, 2004, 11:53:21 AM »

j.hall wrote on Wed, 02 June 2004 11:04

so why has recording become something people feel is their birth rite to get for free????



It happens with all time based businesses especially those that are once removed, like architecture. People will spend millions on a building but will skimp on the design and legal documents holding a contractor to his bid. One change order due to omissions could pay the entire architects fee, people still want the gamble. The value of good production and AEing is in that same boat. the kids are more interested in the video or cd art than the execution of the actual product.

The whole file sharing thing hasn't helped either, not to mention the populations total ignorance to what a professional recording is.  I spend more time fixing peoples home tracking mistakes than I do tracking lately. Is that justice? Is that proper? I don't care. Duping people into figuring out the value of what we do is now part of the game, good sense and reason is now all but a part of the collective imagination.

The more you charge, the more people will respect your need to charge them.

As Walter Sear said: "you can't compete with free." i stopped long ago...

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Fibes
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otek

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Re: the vulture pack dilemma
« Reply #18 on: June 02, 2004, 05:56:11 PM »

Fibes wrote on Wed, 02 June 2004 17:53

The more you charge, the more people will respect your need to charge them. Asalter Sear said: "you can't compete with free." i stopped long ago...



How very, very true.

Well spoken Fibes.   Surprised
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tom eaton

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Re: the vulture pack dilemma
« Reply #19 on: June 02, 2004, 06:23:52 PM »

Seems to me you should get your hourly/song rate per tune, and the real injustice is that client #1 paid for the initial setup and tweak and client #2 benefitted.  The right thing to do would have been for client #2 to pay half of the setup fees.  Your rate would be the same per song/hour (however you figure it).  

The worst case I can remember of the engineer being overlooked was when Roger Nichols delivered ProTools mixes on a record, and then the label went to do the surround mix in house with one of their guys, using all Roger's settings.  Mr. Nichols got paid for the initial work, he just didn't realize how valuable the work was, and the longevity it would have, until later.

-tom

otek

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Re: the vulture pack dilemma
« Reply #20 on: June 02, 2004, 06:35:27 PM »

Tom,

Your Roger Nichols example is actually very descriptive of how I feel about this whole thing.

And client #2 should have offered client #1 to pay for part of the setup time.

I think I have made clear by now that the principle of how this deal was negotiated (or wasn't, as it were) is what irks me the most about it.

Oh well. Another day, another session, and another wisdom.
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Re: the vulture pack dilemma
« Reply #21 on: June 03, 2004, 09:27:46 AM »

I just got paid extra (sort of a tip) by an artist, just thought I'd share.

Good shit happens too Ola.
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Re: the vulture pack dilemma
« Reply #22 on: June 03, 2004, 07:36:45 PM »

Fibes wrote on Thu, 03 June 2004 15:27

Good shit happens too Ola.



Yes it does. I, too was recently offered a cash bonus for a job well done.

And today, I landed a new album mix gig!    Surprised
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