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Author Topic: Did Herb Powers Jnr Cut DMMs @ Europadisk?  (Read 21777 times)

Bob Olhsson

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Re: Did Herb Powers Jnr Cut DMMs @ Europadisk?
« Reply #30 on: April 28, 2008, 11:20:02 pm »

TotalSonic wrote on Sun, 27 April 2008 14:41

...in my direct experience it is more often possible to cut a louder punchier record from material that has in fact been less peak limited than what is commonly done these days for CD.
The reason for this is that the limitation is what can be tracked rather than how much distortion can be tolerated. Vinyl can have a much higher peak level at the hottest average level that won't skip.

bblackwood

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Re: Did Herb Powers Jnr Cut DMMs @ Europadisk?
« Reply #31 on: April 29, 2008, 12:11:45 am »

Bob Olhsson wrote on Mon, 28 April 2008 22:20

TotalSonic wrote on Sun, 27 April 2008 14:41

...in my direct experience it is more often possible to cut a louder punchier record from material that has in fact been less peak limited than what is commonly done these days for CD.
The reason for this is that the limitation is what can be tracked rather than how much distortion can be tolerated. Vinyl can have a much higher peak level at the hottest average level that won't skip.

IME, more dynamic mixes can also be cut louder for CD as well.
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dietrich

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Re: Did Herb Powers Jnr Cut DMMs @ Europadisk?
« Reply #32 on: August 31, 2008, 09:35:30 pm »

Reviving this during my own personal record cutting research.

I pressed and had Don cut 100+ records at Europadisk. Sat in many sessions as well. It seemed too easy. He would pop the master in(DAT early on and then CDR). He would bring it up on the neve, maybe compress the signal as it was dance music and if requested for more would do some quick eq work. Done. Get the lathe started and cut the sides. We had ONE problem ever on a DMM cut record. It was due to an out of phase computer kick drum around the time dance music producers started to move from hardware productions to computer based recordings. The records did not compare to the UK style techno cuts but no one ever complained about them being too quiet.


The system was setup great and Don knew how to control it.

Two months into my own lacquer cutting and I cannot imagine it getting that easy. I need to try and compare to european/uk cuts.
Trying to cut at least +4 sides with proper pitch/depth settings taking some time to fully understand. I wish I could step back and try cutting in the old ED room now to see how the pitch tracked so tightly.

Is the VMS80 pitch system worlds better than a zuma?
D

TotalSonic

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Re: Did Herb Powers Jnr Cut DMMs @ Europadisk?
« Reply #33 on: August 31, 2008, 10:31:38 pm »

dietrich wrote on Sun, 31 August 2008 21:35

Reviving this during my own personal record cutting research.

I pressed and had Don cut 100+ records at Europadisk. Sat in many sessions as well. It seemed too easy. He would pop the master in(DAT early on and then CDR). He would bring it up on the neve, maybe compress the signal as it was dance music and if requested for more would do some quick eq work. Done. Get the lathe started and cut the sides. We had ONE problem ever on a DMM cut record. It was due to an out of phase computer kick drum around the time dance music producers started to move from hardware productions to computer based recordings. The records did not compare to the UK style techno cuts but no one ever complained about them being too quiet.

The system was setup great and Don knew how to control it.


The biggest reason Don made it look easy was simply he had tons and tons of experience cutting both lacquer and DMM sides.  Unfortunately there's no short cut to getting this!

Again - I do have to say that for vinyl cutting the ergonomics of the Neve DTC was absolutely incredible - you could easily set up snapshots of different filter/eq/compressor/limiter settings set up for each of a sides tracks within a few minutes - and then be able to punch them in on the fly with a single button push (quickly pressed right after hitting the spiral marker button on the SP-79's lathe controls).  

It's really too bad that no one out there has come up with the exact same control layout (with hopefully a smaller footprint!) but controlling updated DSP and/or digitally controlled analog processors.

There are definitely ways to set up a similar snap shot automateable system with a DAW though.

Quote:


Is the VMS80 pitch system worlds better than a zuma?
D


From my understanding, it was introduced by Neumann as a  response to the Zuma (who kind of embarrased them as the Zuma was a definite step up from the VMS-7x systems) and from my experiences winning a couple "shoot outs" - where I cut DMM's and got more level on an LP length sides than was cut on to lacquer on VMS-74/Zuma (of which I had been given a test record to beat) - for these longer sides it definitely seemed to get better results.  I'm not sure that it would really give significantly better results for when you're cutting under 14 minute sides though.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

bruno putzeys

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Re: Did Herb Powers Jnr Cut DMMs @ Europadisk?
« Reply #34 on: September 01, 2008, 03:23:08 am »

TotalSonic wrote on Mon, 01 September 2008 04:31

It's really too bad that no one out there has come up with the exact same control layout (with hopefully a smaller footprint!) but controlling updated DSP and/or digitally controlled analog processors.

There are definitely ways to set up a similar snap shot automateable system with a DAW though.

I'm a complete noob (understatement, I've never even made a cut) so I may be talking poop here, but I'm wondering what would be the use of manually changing filters during the actual cut nowadays. Couldn't one simply prepare a complete side on the DAW fully premastered and then transfer it flat? You could duplicate the tracks to another pair shifted up by two seconds and use that to drive the pitch controller.
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Gold

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Re: Did Herb Powers Jnr Cut DMMs @ Europadisk?
« Reply #35 on: September 01, 2008, 07:44:59 am »

Bruno Putzeys wrote on Mon, 01 September 2008 03:23

Couldn't one simply prepare a complete side on the DAW fully premastered and then transfer it flat? You could duplicate the tracks to another pair shifted up by two seconds and use that to drive the pitch controller.


This is what I do. The advantage to doing the way Steve describes is that you don't have to record the whole program back into the DAW in real time before the transfer. You could also save the re record time by doing it with plug ins or a Weiss 102 ( which could be set up to do this) or modern digital outboard and some creative routing. Or an analog A/B path console.
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Paul Gold
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dietrich

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Re: Did Herb Powers Jnr Cut DMMs @ Europadisk?
« Reply #36 on: September 01, 2008, 09:20:36 am »

anyone of the lacquer cutting engineers here ever use both the zuma and the newer vinylium pitch98?

curious about performance differences.

I have a groove collision issue @ 45rpm. Coming out of a dance music breakdown with holding 'echo' I often still get a groove collision when in the last 1.5"of the cutting space. Tech told me with the zuma my delay to head signal should be 666. maybe the delay is the wrong time

D

Gold

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Re: Did Herb Powers Jnr Cut DMMs @ Europadisk?
« Reply #37 on: September 01, 2008, 09:55:36 am »

dietrich wrote on Mon, 01 September 2008 09:20



I have a groove collision issue @ 45rpm. Coming out of a dance music breakdown with holding 'echo' I often still get a groove collision when in the last 1.5"of the cutting space. Tech told me with the zuma my delay to head signal should be 666. maybe the delay is the wrong time



.6 is the right time according to the manual but I use .8 because I like it better. Except when cutting from tape as the rollers make it .6.

That's not your problem. You need to either use a different base pitch or tweak the programmer, or both.
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Paul Gold
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Gold

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Re: Did Herb Powers Jnr Cut DMMs @ Europadisk?
« Reply #38 on: September 01, 2008, 10:09:28 am »

One more thing. Cut unmodulated groove at the outer diameter and at the inner diameter. Check the base depth at the outer diameter and inner diameter. It shouldn't be more than .5mil. There should also not be any vertical motion at either diameter.If there is either of these things you need to tweak the cutterhead suspension. Be careful. It's a lot of fun.
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Paul Gold
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dietrich

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Re: Did Herb Powers Jnr Cut DMMs @ Europadisk?
« Reply #39 on: September 01, 2008, 12:50:56 pm »

Gold wrote on Mon, 01 September 2008 09:55

dietrich wrote on Mon, 01 September 2008 09:20



I have a groove collision issue @ 45rpm. Coming out of a dance music breakdown with holding 'echo' I often still get a groove collision when in the last 1.5"of the cutting space. Tech told me with the zuma my delay to head signal should be 666. maybe the delay is the wrong time



.6 is the right time according to the manual but I use .8 because I like it better. Except when cutting from tape as the rollers make it .6.

That's not your problem. You need to either use a different base pitch or tweak the programmer, or both.



Are you using more than 900ms for 33 then as well?
I've also of course forgot to change the delay when switching from 33 to 45 twice already.

dietrich

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Re: Did Herb Powers Jnr Cut DMMs @ Europadisk?
« Reply #40 on: September 01, 2008, 12:53:14 pm »

Gold wrote on Mon, 01 September 2008 10:09

One more thing. Cut unmodulated groove at the outer diameter and at the inner diameter. Check the base depth at the outer diameter and inner diameter. It shouldn't be more than .5mil. There should also not be any vertical motion at either diameter.If there is either of these things you need to tweak the cutterhead suspension. Be careful. It's a lot of fun.


the knob at top back of the suspension? or the controls at the right side?
Mr Muth set up everything up but i wish i had more time with him up here to go over it and over it...
I am very worried of messing up the programmer settings.

dietrich

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Re: Did Herb Powers Jnr Cut DMMs @ Europadisk?
« Reply #41 on: September 01, 2008, 12:56:56 pm »

[quote title=TotalSonic wrote on Sun, 31 August 2008 22:31]
dietrich wrote on Sun, 31 August 2008 21:35

Reviving this


Quote:


Is the VMS80 pitch system worlds better than a zuma?
D

I'm not sure that it would really give significantly better results for when you're cutting under 14 minute sides though.




I have a line of Lp work in and more coming already.
First LP was mastered by long time NYC engineer, producer etc but the 's'factor is real bad. Not sure he knew it was going to cd+vinyl. This newbie cutter sent the label a ref with my various options for cutting as is. Nice 26 minutes per side too!

Gold

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Re: Did Herb Powers Jnr Cut DMMs @ Europadisk?
« Reply #42 on: September 01, 2008, 01:10:32 pm »

dietrich wrote on Mon, 01 September 2008 12:53


I am very worried of messing up the programmer settings.



There is a scale on the programmer knobs. You can always get back to where you were. You should play with them and see what they do. You can't do this on the suspension. Leave that alone.

Read the calibration procedure in the manual for setting up the internal SV automation. It's the same concept for the Zuma. This is one area where it pays not to follow the instructions too closely.

LL= lateral offset as a result of lateral motion
LV= lateral offset as a result of vertical motion
V= vertical offset as a result of vertical motion

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Paul Gold
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dietrich

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Re: Did Herb Powers Jnr Cut DMMs @ Europadisk?
« Reply #43 on: September 01, 2008, 02:46:14 pm »

Gold wrote on Mon, 01 September 2008 13:10

dietrich wrote on Mon, 01 September 2008 12:53


I am very worried of messing up the programmer settings.



There is a scale on the programmer knobs. You can always get back to where you were. You should play with them and see what they do. You can't do this on the suspension. Leave that alone.

Read the calibration procedure in the manual for setting up the internal SV automation. It's the same concept for the Zuma. This is one area where it pays not to follow the instructions too closely.

LL= lateral offset as a result of lateral motion
LV= lateral offset as a result of vertical motion
V= vertical offset as a result of vertical motion



thanks
i'll mark the programmers tomorrow and see what the changes do

Bob Olhsson

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Re: Did Herb Powers Jnr Cut DMMs @ Europadisk?
« Reply #44 on: September 01, 2008, 08:17:14 pm »

Gold wrote on Mon, 01 September 2008 12:10

...This is one area where it pays not to follow the instructions too closely.
there you go giving away the secret! Shocked
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