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[ScotcH]

PookyNMR wrote on Thu, 17 April 2008 13:21

You believe in the 'engineering' of the chair.  That belief turns into a faith in 'engineering' when you sit in the chair. Your belief in starvation from not working (based on excellent evidence, I might add) becomes faith when you take action and go to work to bring home the bacon.

Are you kidding me?  I might accept that I have "faith" in proven theories of science and basic physics.  But the chair supports my weight not because of faith, but because the material it's made of has certain measurable properties that exceed the mass of my body.  This is not faith ... it is accepted fact.

The other Faith has no proof whatsoever ... which is why it's Faith!

Barry:  Your interpretation seesm to be at odds with Pooky's ... he suggests that even people with faith (in say ... physics) can get into Heaven just fine.  Sounds good to me!  I'll keep my current belief system (in science, and general ethics/morality as defined by me), and I'll see you guys at the pub in the sky!

[studiojimi]

i think it might be better explained like this as

jesus would tell it in a parable of times of the day:

picture this

it's a hot day

you are my son

i am your father and i own the only swimming pool in town

but because you are my son, someday you will own it  

life is like jumping in the swimming pool for the very first time

i'm always in the pool and it is full of happy people having much fun and contentment and they are always thanking me to be out of the heat and telling me how much they love me.

i've always loved them.

it's way hot and you don't want nor have to stay out there and be miserable while we are in here having one heaven of a good time

you want to cool off.  

you know you do.

chillin'

it's the best thing you could be doing on a day like today.

i'm calling you to come to me.

i wan't you by my side

i beckon you to jump into my loving arms

and you are either gonna have to trust me

that i will catch you when you jump

and i will never let you drown or be harmed ever ever ever

for you are my son

and you have me in you and i made you creative just like I AM

come on in

i'm never afraid and there is no need for you to be unlike me

cuz being unlike me is just a plain hellish experience

if you insist on staying out of the water...i'll patiently wait for you

either you use your ability to use your courage and faith today

or you don't....i still love you if you can't do it

but come on in the water's fine and so is the music!

[PookyNMR]

ScotcH wrote on Thu, 17 April 2008 13:16

Are you kidding me?  I might accept that I have "faith" in proven theories of science and basic physics.  But the chair supports my weight not because of faith, but because the material it's made of has certain measurable properties that exceed the mass of my body.  This is not faith ... it is accepted fact.

No.  You're misunderstanding what I'm communicating.  The focus isn't on the chair or whether it can or cannot hold you.  The part where faith comes in has nothing to do with the chair actually holding you up.

Faith comes in where your beliefs (that the chair will hold you up) turn into action -->  you decide and proceed to sit in the chair because of your beliefs.  

Evidence / experience -> belief -> faith -> action.

You your 'belief' may be rooted in 'accepted facts.'  That part is immaterial whether they are 'accepted facts', experiences, feelings, or incomplete evidence.  The point is that there is some sort of belief.  When the belief (whatever it is and whatever it's nature) becomes an action, faith has be exercised.

Belief into action = faith

ScotcH wrote on Thu, 17 April 2008 13:16

The other Faith has no proof whatsoever ... which is why it's Faith!

I'll disagree on three points.

Firstly, you again seem to be lumping faith into a category of religious or mystical beliefs.  Faith is a much more universal concept.

Next, faith and the action it produces does not happen in a vacuum.  Faith comes from beliefs.  Beliefs do not happen in a vacuum either.  Those beliefs are rooted in some sort of evidence.  That evidence may very well be incomplete, be experiential, whatever.  But there is evidence and reason for the belief to take place.

So at best you can say that faith may be based on incomplete evidence.

Next, when engaging in these discussions, it becomes inevitable to accept the ad ridiculum / ad abusrdum point that philosophically there never is such a thing as proof.  And even further, what most consider proof, is really actually the testimony of others.  The proof is not always seen by ones eyes, but rather the testimony believed and made into a faith system out of which one acts.

ScotcH wrote on Thu, 17 April 2008 13:16

Barry:  Your interpretation seesm to be at odds with Pooky's ... he suggests that even people with faith (in say ... physics) can get into Heaven just fine.  Sounds good to me!  I'll keep my current belief system (in science, and general ethics/morality as defined by me), and I'll see you guys at the pub in the sky!

No, you're not carefully reading what I'm saying.  Faith is the stuff that God cares about.  Specifically faith in Jesus.  I was contrasting the idea of faith vs. works, which is a major theme of the New Testament.

Barry's point about forgiveness is one of the benefits of our faith in Christ.  Through faith in Christ we are forgiven of our sin that separates us from God and we are reconciled to God.

[mgod]

PookyNMR wrote on Thu, 17 April 2008 12:51

Faith is the stuff that God cares about.  Specifically faith in Jesus.

Oh well. Guess I'm not loved by that God, since you state it as a fact.

Or are you just being exclusionary and insulting? (That's a rhetorical question).

Fortunately the God of the Hebrews, the one Jesus talked a lot about, has no limits like that.

DS

[studiojimi]

mgod wrote on Thu, 17 April 2008 15:04

PookyNMR wrote on Thu, 17 April 2008 12:51 Faith is the stuff that God cares about.  Specifically faith in Jesus. Oh well. Guess I'm not loved by that God, since you state it as a fact. Or are you just being exclusionary and insulting? (That's a rhetorical question). Fortunately the God of the Hebrews, the one Jesus talked a lot about, has no limits like that. DS

he prayed without ceasing

his life was a prayer

ours should be

dan is included in the love of God.

we all are.

JC said

"the Father and I are ONE."

to me he was showing us who WE are and to use the I AM

I AM one with God and personalize it

He came to show us who and whose we are.

it might be a good idea for all of us to include ourselves in this Divine Birthrite as Kids of the King.

[mgod]

Nicely said Jimi.

DS

[studiojimi]

thanks Dan

and if  you didn't have me banned from PMs in your account i would have privately told  you

"it's a miracle"      

[mgod]

I didn't ban you, or anyone.

DS

[Barry Hufker]

Barry:  Your interpretation seesm to be at odds with Pooky's ... he suggests that even people with faith (in say ... physics) can get into Heaven just fine.  Sounds good to me!  I'll keep my current belief system (in science, and general ethics/morality as defined by me), and I'll see you guys at the pub in the sky!

No, Nathan and I are saying the same thing.  It isn't just faith, it is faith in God through Jesus Christ which results in salvation.  I was just agreeing that one doesn't need a "faith of salvation" to do good works.  And then as I said, "works" don't get a person into heaven.

Now, if there is a pub in the sky, the first round is on me.  Can I pay for it with "good works"?  

[Jessica A. Engle]

I'll just have a root beer, thanks!

Jess

[PookyNMR]

mgod wrote on Thu, 17 April 2008 16:04

PookyNMR wrote on Thu, 17 April 2008 12:51 Faith is the stuff that God cares about.  Specifically faith in Jesus. Oh well. Guess I'm not loved by that God, since you state it as a fact. Or are you just being exclusionary and insulting? (That's a rhetorical question).

Come on, Dan.  You're above those comments and ad hominem attacks.

Being loved by God has nothing to the position of one's faith and no one has suggested otherwise.  

Whether or not we chose to accept the invitation to be reconciled to God through Jesus is our choice.  Exclusion is our choice.

mgod wrote on Thu, 17 April 2008 16:04

Fortunately the God of the Hebrews, the one Jesus talked a lot about, has no limits like that.

The God of the Hebrews according to the OT / Hebrew bible indeed had limits.  Being a member of the covenant family was determined by ethnicity (Jewish) and ceremony (circumcision, sacrificial system, law keeping).  It was either Yahweh or the highway.

All the main world religions contain some sort of exclusivity.

[maxim]

except humanism...

[Barry Hufker]

Even humanism.  God is excluded.

[PookyNMR]

I'm just glad he acknowledged it's a religion.

[mgod]

PookyNMR wrote on Thu, 17 April 2008 19:50

mgod wrote on Thu, 17 April 2008 16:04 PookyNMR wrote on Thu, 17 April 2008 12:51 Faith is the stuff that God cares about.  Specifically faith in Jesus. Oh well. Guess I'm not loved by that God, since you state it as a fact. Or are you just being exclusionary and insulting? (That's a rhetorical question). Come on, Dan.  You're above those comments and ad hominem attacks. Being loved by God has nothing to the position of one's faith and no one has suggested otherwise.   Whether or not we chose to accept the invitation to be reconciled to God through Jesus is our choice.  Exclusion is our choice.

Massive edit:

Every time you re-assert that point you insult the faith of every person who doesn't believe as you do. Including me. Should we presume its un-intentional?

I choose to be reconciled to god without Jesus. That's how we do it in my faith. The way you express it, either I'm right, or you're right. The difference is, mine doesn't condemn yours. Well let me express myself in a similar manner. Jesus isn't necessary. I have that on VERY good authority. Works for you? Groovy. There are plenty of other ways, depending on one's heart and intent. Including the perfectly fine choice to not want it at all. Faith is personal. Your style of presenting it makes it universal and authoritarian with you in the driver's seat.

This is of course, as I said a day or two ago, completely pointless. Appealing for kindness and consideration to others to the religiously convicted is apparently like asking the scorpion not to sting. I have no care for what your dogmatic assertions have to say about me. But these forums are widely read - to my mind, to my spirit's heart, its just appalling that anyone would have to read that their beliefs are regarded by others as inevitably forcing them away from god. One thing it isn't is christian. In my holy book, loving your neighbor includes not insulting their beliefs by hammering your own at them.

For the 3rd time - I'll take Jessica's approach. She shows, and rightly, that kindness is THE way. All the bible learnin' and defendin' in the world don't mean squat if it drives people away.

DS