There are both fans and opponents of thin (3
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« Reply #22 on: April 03, 2008, 11:47:03 PM »
In my post I was referring to custom shops which supply thin diaphragms to third parties. i.e. aftermarket.
Sorry for not having been more clear in my wording. Yes, there are a few manufacturers who use thin diaphragms. Aside of GT, Lawson is another one of the more well-known manufacturers, so is Brauner who uses 4
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« Reply #23 on: April 09, 2008, 10:26:58 AM »
Are thin film diaphragms better? Wow. Ready for liftoff? 3...2...1... Here we go! Short Answer: Coming from the perpetuator of the company that pioneered lower mass large diaphragms back in 1984, my answer may surprise some folks out there... Sometimes. But first: to ask a question like this is not like asking "Apples or Oranges," rather more like "Red Delicious or Granny Smith?" For there is no "better" in my mind, only different flavors, or colors on the palette... Strat or Les Paul? Martin or Taylor? Countach or Testarossa? Hayek or Klum?  Actually, the question itself has very little meaning, because the diaphragm is only one part of a complex and (sometimes) finely tuned system. I've built capsules with thin (Mylar) films that I would readily put up against ANY microphone original or modified, yet I'm still wrangling with getting 0.4 micron film to sound completely stunning. Many times those mics would win, sometimes they would lose- Why? Every application is different. Every set of ears is different. I've worked on mics that I thought were deficient in some particular area, yet it was exactly the deficiency needed to compensate some vocalist's overemphasis in that area, and vice-versa and on and on. Anybody tasted the difference between a pie baked with Red Delicious and one baked with Granny Smith? How about applesauce with those same two? Different applications. As is readily apparent by now,(to wit, the larger part of the Sino-based dreck swamping the market) there is a lot more to making a microphone sound really Good (musical, sexy, etc....) than just machining some parts and sticking them together. It's entirely all too easy to assemble a capsule with thinner diaphragms that really doesn't please anyone. So, the passing of judgment on all thin film mics based on hearing one or two is truly premature. As for the longevity/reliability issue, I've said this before in this forum - in all the mics I've had a chance to examine, I've never seen a thin diaphragm fail due to its inherent thinness. Physical violence (Overeager tech, Drummer, Gravity) or adhesive failure (usually due to physical violence) are the cause of 99% of diaphragm failures. Mylar(r) is a remarkably tough film, and as long as there's no mayhem inflicted upon it, the film itself holds up. Period. There are 1.5 micron capsules in rental situations that are now more than 22 years old and still going strong. 'Nuf said. Transient response may or may not be the strictly correct term to use for the perceivable increase in definition and transparency (for example the difference between hearing individual raindrops and hearing basically white noise,) but it's the most likely culprit in my mind. Regardless of the fact that the air cushion behind the diaphragm is a major contributor to high frequency response in a pressure gradient capsule, there is the issue of inertia. One can argue that, with the proper damping, the inertia of a more massive diaphragm becomes irrelevant; I would argue that with lower mass and lower inertia, not only can higher sensitivity to the more delicate pressure waves result, but less damping is necessary as well. I will leave it to the reader to draw their own conclusions about whether less damping is desirable, though I will point out that a rough analog can be drawn to negative feedback in an electrical circuit. So why, you ask, did I say sometimes? Well, I've tried to use thin diaphragm mics on inferior instruments -- I got inferior results. Too much detail. Too much clarity. Too much inferior instrument. An SM57 turned out to be the deficiency that made up for the deficiency in the instrument. Of course this is the extreme, but serves to illustrate the other end of a Broad spectrum over which many different microphones apply. On another hand, the most consistent response I've gotten from users has been along the lines of "the artist is going nuts, they've never heard themselves like this before" and as a result the performance they delivered was more inspired. On the bottom line, I think that's what recording music is all about; listen to any early Motown record - I hardly think an argument could be made for sonic superiority on "Tears of a Clown" but the performances (and the songwriting/arranging) made it a classic. Jeez, if only they'd had thin diaphragms...  (And yes, CK12's can usually be rebuilt to stock specs even after a mod - it depends.) Best, Tony Merrill Stephen Paul Audio
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« Reply #24 on: April 09, 2008, 01:29:10 PM »
Edit: OK, here's the problem with anecdotal evidence: The tech misidentified the capsule to me as a K47, when it was in fact an M7. The user of thin diaphragms had serviced the mic, but not touched the capsule, by request of the owner. The PVC on the backside had failed, as happens with old PVC membranes.
My apologies to the unnamed repair person, who I did not name for the very reason that it was second hand info.
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studio infoThey say the heart of Rock & Roll is still beating, which is amazing if you consider all the blow it's done over the years. "The Internet enables pompous blowhards to interact with other pompous blowhards in a big circle jerk of pomposity." - Bill Maher "The negative aspects of this business, not only will continue to prevail, but will continue to accelerate in madness. Conditions aren't going to get better, because the economics of rock and roll are getting closer and closer to the economics of Big Business America." - Bill Graham
« Reply #25 on: June 04, 2008, 08:15:53 PM »
Our Stephen Paul modded u87 sounds so much better than our stock u87Ai, especially for vocals and dialog. The thinner capsule is not the only reason it sounds so good, but I believe it is the most significant factor. Not always the right mic, but I almost always prefer the Stephen Paul mod to the u87Ai when an 87 is the right flavor.
-Randy Coppinger
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Randy Coppinger, Audio Craftsman
“A hammer and chisel do not a sculptor make."
- Michelangelo
« Reply #26 on: June 04, 2008, 08:18:24 PM »
wouldn't a thicker diaphragm behave more like a piston?
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I must study politics and war that my sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy .. in order to give their children a right to study painting, poetry and music.
John Adams (1735-1826) 2nd President, United States
« Reply #27 on: June 04, 2008, 08:49:18 PM »
Randy, out of curiosity, try using both head assemblies on one body, to eliminate the difference in amp circuitry as a factor. I'm curious about what you hear in that case.
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studio infoThey say the heart of Rock & Roll is still beating, which is amazing if you consider all the blow it's done over the years. "The Internet enables pompous blowhards to interact with other pompous blowhards in a big circle jerk of pomposity." - Bill Maher "The negative aspects of this business, not only will continue to prevail, but will continue to accelerate in madness. Conditions aren't going to get better, because the economics of rock and roll are getting closer and closer to the economics of Big Business America." - Bill Graham
« Reply #28 on: June 04, 2008, 10:20:37 PM »
What a great idea! I've never detached head assemblies. I opened them up but it was not clear to me how to get them off/on. Any tips?
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Randy Coppinger, Audio Craftsman
“A hammer and chisel do not a sculptor make."
- Michelangelo
« Reply #29 on: June 05, 2008, 12:56:03 AM »
It is easy use soft hands. Unscrew the bottom of the mic pull of the body tube.
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« Reply #30 on: June 05, 2008, 02:31:18 AM »
There's two vertical piece on the side. Squeeze them together, and the head pops right off. The U67/87 is the easiest Neumann to disassemble.
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studio infoThey say the heart of Rock & Roll is still beating, which is amazing if you consider all the blow it's done over the years. "The Internet enables pompous blowhards to interact with other pompous blowhards in a big circle jerk of pomposity." - Bill Maher "The negative aspects of this business, not only will continue to prevail, but will continue to accelerate in madness. Conditions aren't going to get better, because the economics of rock and roll are getting closer and closer to the economics of Big Business America." - Bill Graham
« Reply #31 on: June 05, 2008, 09:13:04 PM »
| J.J. Blair wrote on Wed, 04 June 2008 23:31 |
There's two vertical piece on the side. Squeeze them together, and the head pops right off. The U67/87 is the easiest Neumann to disassemble.
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That is a beautiful thing. Thanks for the help. Now I'm off so record and listen! I'll give you my impressions (and maybe a link) later.
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Randy Coppinger, Audio Craftsman
“A hammer and chisel do not a sculptor make."
- Michelangelo
« Reply #32 on: June 05, 2008, 09:41:32 PM »
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Dominick Costanzo
« Reply #33 on: June 05, 2008, 10:28:15 PM »
The Stephen Paul 87 is NOT an "A" and the stock 87 IS an "Ai".
Does that mean if I swap the heads the comparison will not be a fair one? Or does that mean it will not work, potentially damaging something?
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Randy Coppinger, Audio Craftsman
“A hammer and chisel do not a sculptor make."
- Michelangelo
« Reply #34 on: June 05, 2008, 10:47:25 PM »
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Dominick Costanzo
« Reply #35 on: June 05, 2008, 10:49:19 PM »
It will not work because the contact pins will not fit.
No danger involved, just the old 'the key won't fit the door' thing.
They did that, because patterns in the "A" model are derived differently than in the non-"A" model, i.e. the two capsules are not interchangeable from model to model, and would not work properly on the other model.
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« Reply #36 on: June 06, 2008, 08:39:06 AM »
It doesn't really fit the U87 discussion but I found something interesting. Many, including me, thought that the M50's "alu-capsule" had a super thin (1-2
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Markus Sauschlager
- Schauma amal, dann werma schon sehen... -
"...and do not forget that marketing is b.s. with a sugar coating." - O. Archut, 06 March 2009
« Reply #37 on: June 06, 2008, 12:19:21 PM »
I recently tried my C12VR Stephen Paul 3u mic on vocals and I was amazed. I had all but decided I was going to sell this mic but no more. It is really clear and nice. I had it up against a U47 and my singer and I both were "wow'd". A great flavor to have available. It sounded good on classical guitar too.
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John Huntsman
Portland, OR
« Reply #38 on: June 06, 2008, 12:52:15 PM »
Missed that it was an A. My bad. Sorry.
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studio infoThey say the heart of Rock & Roll is still beating, which is amazing if you consider all the blow it's done over the years. "The Internet enables pompous blowhards to interact with other pompous blowhards in a big circle jerk of pomposity." - Bill Maher "The negative aspects of this business, not only will continue to prevail, but will continue to accelerate in madness. Conditions aren't going to get better, because the economics of rock and roll are getting closer and closer to the economics of Big Business America." - Bill Graham
« Reply #39 on: June 06, 2008, 01:50:11 PM »
I learned how to take off the head assembly. The scenery along the walk was interesting even if I went to the wrong destination. 
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Randy Coppinger, Audio Craftsman
“A hammer and chisel do not a sculptor make."
- Michelangelo
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