R/E/P Community

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Pages: [1] 2 3 4   Go Down

Author Topic: Clutch problem  (Read 8641 times)

Jessica A. Engle

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 736
Clutch problem
« on: March 13, 2008, 03:59:43 PM »

Hey fellas.  Wonder if any of you could help with a little car problem I've got.

The clutch on my car is pretty sensitive, AFAIK.  Unless it is depressed all the way to the floor it will die at a stoplight.  My old stick was not like this at all, and I am frustrated that my car keeps dying as I sit in traffic.  I have read that some other people have the same problem with this model ('03 Toyota Matrix).

Is there any way to add a little "depth" to my clutch pedal so I don't have to use my tip-toes to get it all the way down?  I reckon I wouldn't need much more than 1/4 to 1/2 of an inch of added depth, but am not sure.  

I want something a little more permanent than a splint of wood and gaff tape, if possible.  This is the only lame idea I can come up with, and am reluctant to do it for obvious reasons.  Any ideas would be most appreciated.

Thanks,
Jessica


Logged

Jon Hodgson

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1854
Re: Clutch problem
« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2008, 04:26:14 PM »

Not sure about your specific model, but this might help

http://www.turbocarz.com/njdsm/Clutch.html

Logged

ScotcH

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 329
Re: Clutch problem
« Reply #2 on: March 13, 2008, 04:37:11 PM »

I assume that this is how it has always been ... or is it a new problem that has developed?

If it's like that from the factory, resorting to hacks is the onlyu way usually ... most modern hydraulic clutch systems are self adjusting, meaning there is not  really anything you can do about it short of swapping in parts.

If it's a new problem, you may simply need a new clutch or pressure plate, or there could be an issue with you hydraulic system (master or slave cylinders leaking past the seals).

As a temporary solution, why not just put in neutral when stopped?  This is better for the car anyway since it does not put constanst trrain on the pressure plate fingers.

Btw, race car drivers have been known to bolt a block of wood to the brake pedal to get it higher off the floor, so don't knock the old wood (heh) Smile
Logged
Arek Wojciechowski - Laundry Room, Basement, Garage, Bedroom, etc.

rankus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5560
Re: Clutch problem
« Reply #3 on: March 13, 2008, 04:37:57 PM »


Time to get to a shop me thinks.  If it is a mechanical clutch you may be able to adjust it.  If it is hydraulic (most common these days), then it may just need bleeding, or it may be more serious.

EDIT:  Arek beat me to it....

Logged
Rick Welin - Clark Drive Studios http://www.myspace.com/clarkdrivestudios

Ive done stuff I'm not proud of.. and the stuff I am proud of is disgusting ~ Moe Sizlack

"There is no crisis in energy, the crisis is in imagination" ~ Buckminster Fuller

Jessica A. Engle

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 736
Re: Clutch problem
« Reply #4 on: March 13, 2008, 04:56:10 PM »

It's been precisely this way since I got it last October.  I just assumed it would take some getting used to, but even with the car in neutral at a stop, once I put back in 1st and try to pull out the correct ratio of clutch:gas pedal is extremely narrow.  

I know a good mechanic who might be willing to have a look at it for free.  In the meantime I'll have a peek under the pedals and see if I can find out whether it's hydraulic or not.

Thank you.
Jess
Logged

Berolzheimer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2709
Re: Clutch problem
« Reply #5 on: March 13, 2008, 05:03:37 PM »

In know in my '87 VW cabriolet it gets that way when the cable gets stretched out, & there's a tension adjuster I use to bring teh pedal back up.  Yours probably isn't a cable clutch though.
Logged
The film sound side of my life:
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0077235/

A bunch of songs I've recorded and/or mixed are here:
http://www.zget.me/billionaires/

ssltech

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4780
Re: Clutch problem
« Reply #6 on: March 13, 2008, 05:56:58 PM »

What car, and what year?

By the way, habitually holding your foot on the clutch at a stoplight -even ALL the way to the floor- is not a good practice... it places premature wear on the throwout bearing. The proper practice is neutral and foot all the way OFF the clutch.

Now, many clutches on modern cars are hydraulic and 'self adjusting'. -However, air bubbles and pockets can cause something very similar to what you're describing... mind you, so too can a worn clutch -worn to the point where it will soon need replacement.

I too had a VW Cabriolet (mine was an '86) many years ago, and that cable used to suffer from pinching as well as slight stretch issues over time (I put about 75,000 miles on that one).

The clutch on my present VW failed after I put 125,000 miles on, about 65,000 of which were after I bolted on a supercharger, and thereafter 'drove it like I stole it'... In the last few weeks before it finally separated, (the rivets wore down paper thin and eventually gave up) the clutch action was largely as you describe, and sometimes reverse gear took some careful persuading to talk the lever into engaging...

If it's a hydraulic clutch which has been worked on, I'd try and check for an air pocket/bubble. If it HASN'T been worked on, I'd check for a slave cylinder leak. -If it's a cable clutch, I'd try adjusting it, but a mechanic should be able to check the approximate remaining clutch life by way of the inspection hole... I don't know for certain that EVERY car has this, but my front-wheel-drive VWs had them, and my Porsche has one too.

In addition, SEVERE wear on the throwout bearing (the ring-like bearing race which loves at the end of the 'fork' which pulls the two friction faces apart when you press the pedal) can reduce the amount of travel, but this is usually caused by habitually resting your left foot -HOWEVER LIGHTLY- on the clutch pedal as you drive... If you do this, it's best to get it checked out... oh, and also to STOP doing it!!!  Very Happy

Other than that, it may be best to have it checked by a reputable place... "Double-A (parp parp!!!) M-C-O" should inspect for free, though they usually find something which they will say needs attention...

Hope that helps...

Oh, I've ALWAYS driven stick until now, and I'm FINALLY goign tio buy my first 'automatic'... mind you it's not the 'automatic' part which I've always objected to.. it's the 'torque converter' which the new AUDIs and VWs don't have in the DSG transmissions... Finally I've found a automatic tranny that is BETTER than a manual tranny/clutch combo.

Keith
Logged
MDM (maxdimario) wrote on Fri, 16 November 2007 21:36

I have the feeling that I have more experience in my little finger than you do in your whole body about audio electronics..

Jessica A. Engle

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 736
Re: Clutch problem
« Reply #7 on: March 13, 2008, 06:33:04 PM »

Keith,

It's a 2003 Toyota Matrix, the basic model, not the pimped out racing models.  

I had an '88 Chevy Nova (eg a Toyota Tercel) for a long time, and it leaked fluids quite a lot.  But the clutch problems I had with the Nova were exactly the opposite of my Matrix.  In the Tercel, you could push the clutch only halfway and it would shift for you.  You could even pull the stick out of gear without pushing the clutch!  (Dangerous I know; I only ever did it on accident).  It was always very loose-feeling and offered far less resistance than the gas pedal.  I eventually replaced it.

The Matrix is exactly the opposite.  The resistance is so great that it causes my leg to tire (esp. in stop-and-go traffic where you have to sit in first gear for long periods of time).  And the gears will only shift if the clutch is smashed to the floor.  This is why I was thinking the bolt-some-wood-to-the-pedal idea might help, as I don't think it is a leakage problem.  But I can't say for certain, as this is (by about 15 years) the newest car I have driven.

BTW I try not to leave my foot resting on the clutch.  But occasionally I catch myself doing it regardless.  Thanks for the reminder!

Jessica
Logged

ssltech

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4780
Re: Clutch problem
« Reply #8 on: March 13, 2008, 07:40:15 PM »

Hmmm, I think the matrix should be a hydraulic clutch. -If I recall correctly, that was yet another joint-venture with General Motors though (-you seem to like those!), so I don't know who made which parts... in general, Toyota makes transmissions which (coupled to that level of power) should require about as much maintenance as the average refrigerator.

If the car was bought used however, there's no easy way to tell how the previous owner drove it, or exactly what their habits were... By and large the US is a nation of automatic-owners, and the level of education of stick-shift drivers is really not so hot, from my observation...

In fact, only last week I was behind a stick-shift car (it was a post-1999 Mk3 VW Cabriolet as it happens...) stopped at an UPHILL traffic light at the end of an off-ramp, where the driver was 'rocking' the car forwards and backwards slightly, using the clutch (no brake lights... though I did see that they were functioning perfectly when we came to the next stop light). -You probably know the thing... instead of holding the car stopped on the slope by using the service brake (the foot brake in other words) she was using the clutch in first gear, and varying/modulating the clutch grip slightly so that the car crept forwards and backwards slightly, over a 2-3 second 'cycle'... it REALLY made me wince, and it was a 3 or 4 minute red light... -you have NO IDEA how it made me squirm to watch it... -right in front of me... I just kept fighting the irrepressible urge to get out and ask the driver if she was aware of how much she was accelerating the clutch wear...

...Mind you my mum does EXACTLY the same thing. She generally sells the cars at about 20,000 miles (3-4 years at her annual mileage) and people probably think they're getting a GREAT car:" -Little old lady owner, only 5k miles a year... what a find!!! -then the clutch fails at 25,000 miles.)

Anyhow... Used cars can come from ANY type of driver, so it's DEFINITELY worth an inspection: if a clutch does fail, you'd better have a "Triple'A" towing membership, because it won't go anywhere under its own power.

I don't know if that's a GM transmission or a Toyota transmission, but I'd expect it to have a hydraulic actuation mechanism anyway. -Just a word of advice, that fluid should be flushed every few years, because -like brake fluid- it's hygroscopic, and likes to absorb moisture from the atmosphere and over time that tends to eat seals.... that's not necessarily your problem here though, but at 5 years old, it's worth a flush if you don't have a record of it on the car's service log... I have Brake fluid flushed EVERY two years and clutch fluid every four years on the VW, the Porsche gets brake fluid one week before EVERY track day, so it never gets to be even one year old... but new clutch fluid every four years.

One question about seating position though: My seating position is ALWAYS determined by setting the seat so that -with the base of by spine neatly against the base of the seat's backrest- straightening the left leg fully presses the clutch pedal FIRMLY against the end-stop... Some people have to 'stretch' the leg to push the pedal to the end-stop, and that makes the required effort more arduous... It can also accelerate clutch-wear, since the gears are then shifted with the friction faces incompletely disengaged...

You should be able to pop the gear selector on ANY manually-gearboxed car into neutral without having to press the clutch. -All you should do is slightly relax the pressure on the GAS pedal (assuming that you're up-shifting, and -appling a GENTLE pressure on the gear knob, you should feel it 'release' into neutral as you ease off on the gas.

In fact once you've moved off in first gear, it's perfectly possible to go through EVERY other gear without using the clutch AT ALL. -Much easier to do upshifting than downshifting, but in a synchromesh gearbox (which yours undoubtedly is), all you shoudl do is rev-match, then 'ease' the shifter into the next gear. -You'll probably play "the star spangled banner" on it the first time you try, but it can be done... -I once had a clutch cable snap on an old rear-engined Aircooled car, and drove it about 50 miles home... never stopping, but using all the gears, accelerating to full highway speed, and slowing to under 10MPH as needed...

Don't try this for the first time unless you're about to sell the car you're doing it to, by the way... or if it's a rental, it goes without saying!!!  Very Happy

Keith
Logged
MDM (maxdimario) wrote on Fri, 16 November 2007 21:36

I have the feeling that I have more experience in my little finger than you do in your whole body about audio electronics..

Emil "Gus" Gawaziuk

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 89
Re: Clutch problem
« Reply #9 on: March 13, 2008, 11:30:12 PM »

It would be a hydraulic clutch on that car, and it uses brake fluid for the hydraulics.

From the sounds of it you have either a marginal release bearing, or a slave on its way out.  From what I remember, the clutch action on those cars wasn't that bad at all as far as effort goes.  The wonderful thing about hydraulic clutch systems....... smooth release and application.  In reality?  Dependant on how many miles are on the car, and the previous owners driving habits, it all points to a clutch issue.  You can have a gander at the fluid level, it should be next to the brake resevoir on the firewall, towards the fender side.  If I remember correctly.  It may be low on fluid, as brake fluid does tend to boil off over time as well.  It also absorbs moisture as was pointed out, and it is getting to that 5 year point that both brakes and clutch need to be bled and flushed out.  Pretty sure Toyota doesn't use a common resevoir as many of the euros do (VW shares the clutch with the brakes as far as fluid goes)
Logged
Wherever I shall go, that is where I will end up

YZ

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 868
Re: Clutch problem
« Reply #10 on: March 14, 2008, 12:37:54 AM »

ssltech wrote on Thu, 13 March 2008 20:40


One question about seating position though: My seating position is ALWAYS determined by setting the seat so that -with the base of by spine neatly against the base of the seat's backrest- straightening the left leg fully presses the clutch pedal FIRMLY against the end-stop... Some people have to 'stretch' the leg to push the pedal to the end-stop, and that makes the required effort more arduous...


First, about Jessica's clutch problem:

Definitely a case for service.

And better do it soon, you may find yourself with an inoperable clutch in a very short time.

The wood block thing will not help, you simply do not have enough  usable travel in the clutch mechanism.

I had a car that had the same symptom, and a clutch adjustment (done in the street by the driver of the tow truck I had to call) not only fixed it but gave me the best clutch action I've ever had...  luckily that driver was actually a pretty good mechanic who was driving the truck that day because their regular driver was on sick leave.

Keith,

I adjust my seat position so that when I fully depress the clutch my leg is _not_ fully straight; gives me more control and far less stress. I used to to as you described, and after I developed a back problem (unrelated) I found out that the 'new' position is much more relaxing under heavy traffic conditions, makes my back hurt less and has the benefit of giving me more support when cornering at high speeds...
Logged
regards,

YZ

ssltech

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4780
Re: Clutch problem
« Reply #11 on: March 14, 2008, 11:09:25 AM »

YZ,

As to the high-speed cornering issue, many Left-seat-steer (i.e. intended for driving on the right!) cars nowadays have a footrest to the left of the clutch pedal, which in both of my present cars is higher than the clutch pedal. During high-lateral-load cornering of course you should NEVER change gears, so your foot should be on the rest and of course never on the clutch pedal...

I second Emil "Gus" Gawaziuk's comments about the improved action of hydraulic clutches. -The move away from clutch cable removed must of the friction and almost entirely eliminates the slight "slip-stick" jerky release of worn cable systems. -The only thing that you should be fighting when pressing the clutch pedal should be the spring which is trying to force the two friction faces back together. -In the case of super-high-powered engines, this occasionally has to be a pretty mighty spring, in order to keep the faces so tightly engaged that there is no 'slip' when full torque is applied (i.e. when the loud pedal is all the way into the mat!), but on a more moderate vehicle there's no reason to force them together so mightily... all it does is 'pump up' the driver's left thigh muscle!

Back to seating position though: YZ's suggestion is acceptable, and in fact my leg NEVER goes fully straight, because the seat-base limits the range of motion... but sitting TOO far away (when you have to 'stretch' to hit the endstop) is definitely not correct. The standard driving position  as defined on my local PCA site is as follows:

Quote:

First, slide your seat forward so your left leg is slightly bent when pushing the clutch all the way to the floor. Then, adjust the seatback so your wrists touch the top of the steering wheel when your arms are fully extended in front of you.


Keef                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    
Logged
MDM (maxdimario) wrote on Fri, 16 November 2007 21:36

I have the feeling that I have more experience in my little finger than you do in your whole body about audio electronics..

Jessica A. Engle

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 736
Re: Clutch problem
« Reply #12 on: March 14, 2008, 11:23:07 AM »

I am learning so much here.  I suspected it might be simply an ergonomic problem (or, in other words, an operator error).  But it sounds like that might only be part of what's wrong.  

I'll have it into the shop this weekend and let you know.

Thanks much.
Jessica
Logged

Taproot

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 713
Re: Clutch problem
« Reply #13 on: March 14, 2008, 11:37:53 AM »

More than likely the slave cylinder. Easily fixed. Bring it on over.  Very Happy
Logged
Jeffrey Reed
Taproot Audio Design
Oxford, Mississippi
www.taprootaudiodesign.com
www.myspace.com/taprootaudio

"That boy's so dumb, he thinks the Mexican border pays rent!" -Foghorn Leghorn

ScotcH

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 329
Re: Clutch problem
« Reply #14 on: March 14, 2008, 12:27:06 PM »

The way we teach sitting position in our track/race schools (which applies to street driving as well):

- Sit in the seat with your ass firmly planted.
- move the seat forward until you can put your foot on the floor UNDER the brake pedal without moving your hips or ass off the seat
- Adjust the angle of the backrest until you can place your wrists on the steering wheel without moving your shoulder blades off the seat back.
- drive with hands at 10 and 2 or 3 and 9

This will seem REALLY close unless you're used to it, but it gives your the best control of the car, without having to stretch in any way.

Jessica:  Take the car to a shop ... does not sound normal at all Smile
Logged
Arek Wojciechowski - Laundry Room, Basement, Garage, Bedroom, etc.
Pages: [1] 2 3 4   Go Up
 

Site Hosted By Ashdown Technologies, Inc.

Page created in 0.08 seconds with 21 queries.