Topic: a blessing or a curse? (Read 9508 times)

j.hall · « **on:** March 11, 2008, 10:53:47 PM »

you decide.......

i haven't decided yet. i've been waiting for this technology, and sort of dreading it as well.

is this the "anti-christ" of audio production?

http://www.celemony.com/cms/index.php?id=dna

Iain Graham · « **Reply #1 on:** March 11, 2008, 11:04:31 PM »

It's been coming for a while, but it is scary. Both in the very idea of it, and in how it can be abused.

I don't know if it's the beginning of the end, but it makes me slightly happier that I now make my living as a live tech..... Twisted Evil

J-Texas · « **Reply #2 on:** March 11, 2008, 11:24:38 PM »

I just had a picture in my mind of how it could be used to experiment extensively. Almost like the loop-based software craze. It was very cool from a writing aspect to "paint" the blocks on the time line, and then move around the blocks to try different arrangements and cuts. This is just another tool. A way to hear things outside of the box, I guess. Almost like giving yourself technical suggestions. Very powerful.

But, yes... it WILL be used for evil in the wrong hands. HaHaHaHHHAAAAAAAA. Twisted Evil

Goodnight.

Antman · « **Reply #3 on:** March 12, 2008, 03:44:57 AM »

Would this allow us to perhaps EQ individual notes in a chord, or maybe even take the first 2 notes from each chord on a guitar track and pan L, and pan the 2nd 2 notes right? etc etc etc

Because I can see how that would be very useful. Theres a lot of creative possibilities there in that sense. And changing audio to midi - being able to print out sheet music from real audio would be great!

J-Texas · « **Reply #4 on:** March 12, 2008, 09:25:29 AM »

Antman wrote on Wed, 12 March 2008 02:44

Would this allow us to perhaps EQ individual notes in a chord, or maybe even take the first 2 notes from each chord on a guitar track and pan L, and pan the 2nd 2 notes right? etc etc etc

Because I can see how that would be very useful. Theres a lot of creative possibilities there in that sense. And changing audio to midi - being able to print out sheet music from real audio would be great!

Dude. I was going to bed last night. My wheels weren't turning like that! You're on to some serious business right there. I was thinking adding a slight fuzz to just a couple of strings could be useful too. ENDLESS! The sheet music thing would be GREAT! It would take me all day to adapt 1 guitar part... that's why I don't do it! Laughing

The Knights Melodyne Templars need to harness it's power for good and not... evil! HAHAHAHAHAAHAHAAAAAAAA. Twisted Evil

Good mornin' y'all!

$a1Ty · « **Reply #5 on:** March 12, 2008, 09:40:59 AM »

are we heading to where we can just record everything in the one room with one mic, and then split everything up in the computer and process them all individually?

tom eaton · « **Reply #6 on:** March 12, 2008, 09:51:44 AM »

Why not just reuse all the notes that have already been recorded?

I mean, think what we could do to improve all those Beatles records.

Iain Graham · « **Reply #7 on:** March 12, 2008, 10:23:54 AM »

Please edit this post in case someone reads it and actually fucking tries it...... Shocked

j.hall · « **Reply #8 on:** March 12, 2008, 11:04:30 AM »

from the looks of the demo, you can not EQ individual notes in the chord. melodyne will display the chord, but it will return it to pro tools as a single audio file.

i honestly have no desire to individually process notes in a chord.

for me, this is a useful tool for the stray guitar part with an out of tune G string (or which ever string)

i actually get that a lot. and i have bands ask me to tune it all the time.

i silently curse the tracking engineer for letting something like that slide.

Patrik T · « **Reply #9 on:** March 12, 2008, 11:16:57 AM »

Considering the density and length of the inventors beard, he has spent some time on this.

Surprisingly clear-eyed though...

To me this technique is neither a blessing or a curse. It is just another modern step towards lazier musicians with less soul.

Best Regards
Patrik

Iain Graham · « **Reply #10 on:** March 12, 2008, 12:56:52 PM »

I hate that, especially if I'm the guy who tracked it.... Embarassed

I always find Piano is worse for that though.

For the individual notes thing, I have in the past split parts with a strong, sustained root and fast picking over the top and tracked them separately, so I could see it being useful if you were mixing and wanted to do that. But it's not possible....yet.

j.hall · « **Reply #11 on:** March 12, 2008, 02:27:58 PM »

don't forget that the video has no distorted content. which will introduce a whole new level of harmonics.

i'd like to see this thing break out a heavily distorted guitar part. or even a screaming vocalist.

Dom3735 · « **Reply #12 on:** March 12, 2008, 03:17:49 PM »

AAaaaaarrrRRrrgggGghhHHhhh!!!!
EvIllllllllll...

This is unbelieveblely dangerous...
It's got to be sold under prescription.

j.hall · « **Reply #13 on:** March 12, 2008, 03:49:37 PM »

Dom Berg wrote on Wed, 12 March 2008 14:17

AAaaaaarrrRRrrgggGghhHHhhh!!!!
EvIllllllllll...

This is unbelieveblely dangerous...
It's got to be sold under prescription.

where do you think it will go?

why so evil?

imdrecordings · « **Reply #14 on:** March 13, 2008, 12:38:15 PM »

This is the most useless plug-in I have ever seen in my entire life, that merely demonstrates the brilliance of it's creator. I can't see myself using this, but I'm sure someone will do something cool/creative with it and others will fall to the darkside and contintue to produce their overly produced/quest for perfection/dull/trite mixes.

I always find programs/plug-ins like this pull away from makes thing interesting or cool, more so than they help. Must be a taste thing.

j.hall · « **Reply #15 on:** March 13, 2008, 01:17:50 PM »

this is yet another tool.

a person's use, or abuse, is completely up to them.

imdrecordings · « **Reply #16 on:** March 13, 2008, 01:22:24 PM »

Begs the question J.
Why do people feel the need to develop tools such as this?

Tomas Danko · « **Reply #17 on:** March 13, 2008, 01:31:30 PM »

Being able to fix that sour string on the rhythm guitar track when mixing could be a good way to use this tool, as other's already pointed out.

Other than that, I can see how a lot of sample libraries suddenly became an awful lot more useful to the people using them.

That's pretty much it, besides horrible abuse through this application in so many ways. But that is nothing new.

bblackwood · « **Reply #18 on:** March 13, 2008, 01:39:30 PM »

imdrecordings wrote on Thu, 13 March 2008 12:22

Begs the question J.
Why do people feel the need to develop tools such as this?

Same reason people felt the need to develop EQs.

imdrecordings · « **Reply #19 on:** March 13, 2008, 01:51:01 PM »

bblackwood wrote on Thu, 13 March 2008 12:39

imdrecordings wrote on Thu, 13 March 2008 12:22

Begs the question J.
Why do people feel the need to develop tools such as this?

Same reason people felt the need to develop EQs.

I'm having a hard time grasping that one.
I am amazed at what this product does and can do, but I'm dumbfounded by it's existents.

Creatively it seems rather neat, I guess.
But these kind of products seem to be made for "fixing" things.
Yes? No?

bblackwood · « **Reply #20 on:** March 13, 2008, 02:01:31 PM »

imdrecordings wrote on Thu, 13 March 2008 12:51

bblackwood wrote on Thu, 13 March 2008 12:39

imdrecordings wrote on Thu, 13 March 2008 12:22

Begs the question J.
Why do people feel the need to develop tools such as this?

Same reason people felt the need to develop EQs.

I'm having a hard time grasping that one.
I am amazed at what this product does and can do, but I'm dumbfounded by it's existents.

Creatively it seems rather neat, I guess.
But these kind of products seem to be made for "fixing" things.
Yes? No?

Why were EQ's developed?

imdrecordings · « **Reply #21 on:** March 13, 2008, 02:13:09 PM »

>Why were EQ's developed?

To allow us to adjust the level of a frequncy(s).

bblackwood · « **Reply #22 on:** March 13, 2008, 02:30:20 PM »

imdrecordings wrote on Thu, 13 March 2008 13:13

>Why were EQ's developed?

To allow us to adjust the level of a frequncy(s).

Aka 'fixing' things.

Any tool can be used and any tool can be abused...

imdrecordings · « **Reply #23 on:** March 13, 2008, 02:46:48 PM »

bblackwood wrote on Thu, 13 March 2008 13:30

imdrecordings wrote on Thu, 13 March 2008 13:13

>Why were EQ's developed?

To allow us to adjust the level of a frequncy(s).

Aka 'fixing' things.

Any tool can be used and any tool can be abused...

Are you saying that there is no difference between a tool that manipulates a frequency, than one that changes the performance entirely?

bblackwood · « **Reply #24 on:** March 13, 2008, 02:51:44 PM »

imdrecordings wrote on Thu, 13 March 2008 13:46

bblackwood wrote on Thu, 13 March 2008 13:30

imdrecordings wrote on Thu, 13 March 2008 13:13

>Why were EQ's developed?

To allow us to adjust the level of a frequncy(s).

Aka 'fixing' things.

Any tool can be used and any tool can be abused...

Are you saying that there is no difference between a tool that manipulates a frequency, than one that changes the performance entirely?

No, of course not, but in the right hands this can be a valuable tool.

You think the greats of our past would single-handedly eschew the use of a tool based on principle? No - what made them great was their ability to utilize any and all tools to help the audience hear their efforts the way they intended.

This is no differnet in that regard. Like anything else, it can be used or abused.

imdrecordings · « **Reply #25 on:** March 13, 2008, 03:20:01 PM »

Brad,
I agree with you.
For me, the development of a product like this is like developing tools to build homes on sand in San Fransico.
But what ever works, pays the bills and makes people happy.. Smile

j.hall · « **Reply #26 on:** March 13, 2008, 04:12:27 PM »

imdrecordings wrote on Thu, 13 March 2008 13:46

Are you saying that there is no difference between a tool that manipulates a frequency, than one that changes the performance entirely?

i think performance is a tricky word for this example.

you can easily break performance into categories.

two of which would be.....

1. the physical act of creating the music. this would be most related to timing and dynamics.

2. the specific melodic and harmonic content as created by an individual.

if you are leaning toward 2 being what you call performance, then yes this software will ruin it.

i lean more toward 1.

and to be honest, i'm a mixer. i don't get to re-cut an out of tune guitar part. i just get the band asking me to tune it.

so until this august, i simply can't do it.

imdrecordings · « **Reply #27 on:** March 13, 2008, 05:00:15 PM »

J.
I can't identify with your view point.
I see those 2 as 1, not separate.
Here's the thing..
When you have to focus on something in such fine detail (like the new Melodyne allows you to do), I would imagine that there honestly is no way of fixing things. Stop and think how things roll in a mix and how people really play their instrument. If a part was so damaged/wrong that you had to deconstruct the chord and adjust the intonation of that one note, in half a bar or beat....What have we come to? Shocked

Then again I can completely contradict myself and see how this could be a very fun and creative tool.

j.hall · « **Reply #28 on:** March 13, 2008, 05:57:39 PM »

i'll give you an example that happens to me many, many times a year.

as of now, i'm doing about 45 - 60 projects a year. some are singles, EP's, LP's....whatever, that doesn't really matter other then to show my frequency of work.

i'll get guitars that have been freshly strung and by the end of the tune one string is out.

i haven't a clue as to how the player, engineer or producer let this slide. regardless, i'm stuck with it and can't do a thing about it.

some times you can hide it, some times not. more often then not, the band asks me to fix it.

it's too late for them to go re-cut it, and i have to deliver bad news.

come august (if the product can hang with distortion) i'll be able to say, "sure, i'll look into it"

depending on how artifacty DNA is, i'll fix it, or tell them to live with it.

either way, this product will allow me to better serve my clients as this situation happens to me many times a year.

i think if i were more of a writing producer i'd find this tool very valuable.

if i composed based off sample libraries i'd be unable to contain myself till august.

ATOR · « **Reply #29 on:** March 13, 2008, 08:43:42 PM »

I think it's an amazing tool.

Last month I had a piano recording that had one wrong note in it. The band left it in because the performance was hairraising but they felt really bad about the wrong note. If I could have fixed it they'd make me their god Very Happy

I think it's always good if you can fix technical flaws in amazing performances. Reality will probably be that we'll be fixing a lot of poor performances.

Autotune and the likes made the out of tune vocal performance good enough. Looks like Melodyne is gonna do this for the harmony instruments. Why spend the extra time and money on another take if they can fix it in the mix.

Let's hope this news doesn't get to the artists so they wont start depending on us to fix their playing.

Antman · « **Reply #30 on:** March 17, 2008, 10:20:03 AM »

So long as we keep the live venues alive, and great sound guys at the helm, bands will still MOSTLY have to hone their art.

Or at least we can hope.

Iain Graham · « **Reply #31 on:** March 17, 2008, 11:15:29 PM »

You must not go to the same gigs as I go to....or even worse, have to try and polish the sonic turd of.....

j.hall · « **Reply #32 on:** March 20, 2008, 04:19:01 PM »

live musicianship has gotten pretty bad.

Fig · « **Reply #33 on:** March 21, 2008, 01:45:33 PM »

imdrecordings wrote on Thu, 13 March 2008 13:46

bblackwood wrote on Thu, 13 March 2008 13:30

imdrecordings wrote on Thu, 13 March 2008 13:13

>Why were EQ's developed?

To allow us to adjust the level of a frequncy(s).

Aka 'fixing' things.

Any tool can be used and any tool can be abused...

Are you saying that there is no difference between a tool that manipulates a frequency, than one that changes the performance entirely?

Sorry, but the purist in me must first state that EQs do NOT adjust frequency.

Secondly, I think the statement has been made that this was developed mostly because it COULD and not necessarily because anyone actually asked for it.

Tone controls, OTOH, we developed because they were actually NEEDED at the time (and even today, eh?).

To me, most software development is from idle hands doing the Devil's work - I promise I will never use a "tool" such as this and instead insist that guitars (and pianos!) be tuned accordingly and that singers hit their notes.

That being said, I still employ a hardware Eventide H910 on occassion.

$0.02,

Thom "never tuned a track ITB" Fiegle

Iain Graham · « **Reply #34 on:** March 21, 2008, 02:19:19 PM »

I mixed a corporate show last night, a fundraiser put on by local financial organisations.

The bands were all made up of the bankers, fund brokers, etc. Most of the play pretty much 1 gig a year.

The worrying thing about it was, they were as good as a lot of the local rock bands I see on shows. Or maybe as bad as.

Bad timing, not playing as a unit, playing out of tune.....and people just don't get the difference. Rolling Eyes

Musical education in school needs a major overhaul.

j.hall · « **Reply #35 on:** March 21, 2008, 05:36:11 PM »

Iain Graham wrote on Fri, 21 March 2008 13:19

Musical education in school needs a major overhaul.

i wonder how much that has to do with our society no longer telling any one they are "no good", "can't play", "not talented"........etc...

it seems like mediocrity is now a social norm in order to maintain political correctness.

reminds me a lot of george orwell's 1984............

Iain Graham · « **Reply #36 on:** March 21, 2008, 08:50:33 PM »

That's part of it. Certainly in Britain, it's also due to the 80s and the lack of importance, or even opportunity, given to the arts.

Us engineers spending too much time fixing stuff due to lack of time, or talent also contributes.

The quick fix mentality of today too.

The biggest thing is really that it can be fixed in the mix. You don't have to be polished to get into the studio nowadays....anyone can fix bad musicainship easily nowadays.... Sad

Shalebot · « **Reply #37 on:** March 21, 2008, 11:13:42 PM »

j.hall wrote on Fri, 21 March 2008 16:36

it seems like mediocrity is now a social norm in order to maintain political correctness.

reminds me a lot of george orwell's 1984............

Oh, I think mediocrity is more than accepted, it is promoted. Instead of celebrating greatness, we as a society denounce people who are good at whatever it is they do. Instead of telling it like it is, we try to find any reason possible to think positively of mediocrity, and negatively about talent, skill, and creativity.

RSettee · « **Reply #38 on:** March 24, 2008, 03:44:28 PM »

$a1Ty wrote on Wed, 12 March 2008 08:40

are we heading to where we can just record everything in the one room with one mic, and then split everything up in the computer and process them all individually?

Better yet, are we just heading to where we don't actually have to play instruments, or better yet, rehearse?

$a1Ty · « **Reply #39 on:** March 26, 2008, 11:35:47 PM »

RSettee wrote on Tue, 25 March 2008 06:44

$a1Ty wrote on Wed, 12 March 2008 08:40

are we heading to where we can just record everything in the one room with one mic, and then split everything up in the computer and process them all individually?

Better yet, are we just heading to where we don't actually have to play instruments, or better yet, rehearse?

heh yeah thats what this will be used for

but from a technical stand point this is pretty awesome, just think about the cake analogy, soon we will be able to take a mix back to its original components, thats pretty cool

SingSing · « **Reply #40 on:** March 27, 2008, 06:21:03 AM »

RSettee wrote on Mon, 24 March 2008 15:44

$a1Ty wrote on Wed, 12 March 2008 08:40

are we heading to where we can just record everything in the one room with one mic, and then split everything up in the computer and process them all individually?

Better yet, are we just heading to where we don't actually have to play instruments, or better yet, rehearse?

Good point Ryan. But with or without this app, the trend has been to line everything up to a grid and that hasn't exactly encouraged good playing. This app will only line things up even easier. But also, it seems it will possibly make it easier to not be a slave under that grid. If it works as shown in the video, I think it will possibly prove to be one of the first creative tools that actually helps us make better music instead of just saving the situation.

All the best,

Stefan
SingSing

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Author Topic: a blessing or a curse? (Read 9508 times)