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Author Topic: Mr. Fix-it... snare drum mic placement ??  (Read 6804 times)

josh

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Mr. Fix-it... snare drum mic placement ??
« on: May 19, 2004, 04:47:13 PM »

I've been experimenting lately with trying to improve my recorded drum tone and one day happened upon a snare drum mic position that was killer...  I thought I had remembered it, but alas, no.  Tried to reproduce it today and I'm back to the beginning.

My classic complaint with close-mic snare drum tone is that it lacks body and kind of goes "boink".  It does not sound like a snare drum.

What I was experimenting with that seemed to work a lot better was a 3-mic technique with one omni overhead, an LDC near the snare and another LDC on the kick.  The result was a terrific snare drum sound with body and character like the drum in the room.  None of this "poppy" "boink" that you get when you put an SM57 1" from the batter head.  

Can anyone offer some advice about snare drum mic position that will give me a more balanced tone?  I think maybe my problem is I just need to move the mic further away from the drum.  FWIW I'm not really worried about HH bleed or isolation from other drums, I don't get into all that.

Thanks-

drumsound

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Re: Mr. Fix-it... snare drum mic placement ??
« Reply #1 on: May 20, 2004, 03:02:28 AM »

Start with the overheads.  Then add the room, then the snare mic.  The main tone will come from the OH and Room, and the close mic will give you the punch.  Also try to mic the shell.  I used to do that a lot, but I've been back to micing the head.  I think I'll mic the chell on the next project...
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audiodave

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Re: Mr. Fix-it... snare drum mic placement ??
« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2004, 06:36:45 AM »

try micing the top and bottom of the snare, put the bottom out of phase. this will give you more snap and less boink. often I'll just use the overheads or room mics and the snare bottom mic with great results. for mic's I use 414's or 57's or sometimes a combo.
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Fletcher

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Re: Mr. Fix-it... snare drum mic placement ??
« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2004, 07:08:06 AM »

Man do I feel your pain!!!  A few years ago a friend turned me onto this postition and I haven't gone back since.  Using whatever mic is most appropriate for the drum [I've used all sorts of shit from 57's to Gefell M-295's to AKG 414's and all kinds of shit in between], point the mic at the side of the drum between the top and bottom rims from anywhere between 4" and a foot off.  Sometimes you'll need to move the thing around to minimize hi/hat stuff... but it generally works like a charm.

Best of luck!!
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CN Fletcher

mwagener wrote on Sat, 11 September 2004 14:33
We are selling emotions, there are no emotions in a grid


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If you've spent most of your life with a few thousand dollars worth of musicians in the studio, making a decision every second and a half... and you and  they are going to have to live with it for the rest of your lives, you'll get pretty arrogant too.  It takes a certain amount of balls to do that... something around three"
Malcolm Chisholm

special agent Stu

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Re: Mr. Fix-it... snare drum mic placement ??
« Reply #4 on: May 20, 2004, 08:32:57 AM »

Hey Fletcher..Do you still use a close mic with that technique? Does it bring some phase nightmares? I'm going to try it out ASAP tho! Thanks man.
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josh

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Re: Mr. Fix-it... snare drum mic placement ??
« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2004, 11:33:53 AM »

Fletcher wrote on Thu, 20 May 2004 12:08

Man do I feel your pain!!!  A few years ago a friend turned me onto this postition and I haven't gone back since.  Using whatever mic is most appropriate for the drum [I've used all sorts of shit from 57's to Gefell M-295's to AKG 414's and all kinds of shit in between], point the mic at the side of the drum between the top and bottom rims from anywhere between 4" and a foot off.  Sometimes you'll need to move the thing around to minimize hi/hat stuff... but it generally works like a charm.

Best of luck!!


I think this is what I'm after.  Maybe I just need to move the mic further away.  Probably can't get a chance to test it today, but over the weekend for sure.  In fact I might be able to record some real tracks over the weekend so we'll see how it goes.

Regarding getting the sound in the overheads, yeah the sound in the overheads is mint.  I just need to add a bit of "look at me" to the snare drum track, it's sort of "laid back" in the overheads so I need the snare track.  I'll try your technique.

archtop

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Re: Mr. Fix-it... snare drum mic placement ??
« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2004, 11:55:31 AM »

I started using this last year


I (and you should too) call it the fletcher technique



some snares it's just right for.

some times a close one on top still works

when it don't

I go for the fletcher
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Fletcher

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Re: Mr. Fix-it... snare drum mic placement ??
« Reply #7 on: May 20, 2004, 04:48:56 PM »

Thanks for the compliment... but that's no more "the Fletcher technique" than the 3 mic drum thing... it was done years before I was born by engineers far more expert than I will probably ever be.

As for using it with a close mic, no.  That's the only mic I ever use.

Best of luck.
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CN Fletcher

mwagener wrote on Sat, 11 September 2004 14:33
We are selling emotions, there are no emotions in a grid


"Recording engineers are an arrogant bunch.  
If you've spent most of your life with a few thousand dollars worth of musicians in the studio, making a decision every second and a half... and you and  they are going to have to live with it for the rest of your lives, you'll get pretty arrogant too.  It takes a certain amount of balls to do that... something around three"
Malcolm Chisholm

brandondrury

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Re: Mr. Fix-it... snare drum mic placement ??
« Reply #8 on: May 22, 2004, 02:41:15 AM »

Quote:

I'm not really worried about HH bleed or isolation from other drums, I don't get into all that.



It must be nice to record drummers who can half ass balance their kit.  It doesn't matter how much I tell a drummer that he needs to beat the living shit out of the kick, snare, and toms he will still resort to pounding the living piss out of his hi-hats with a sledgehammer in his right hand while hitting his snare with a pencil.  

My favorite is the absurdly loud pounding of 1/16 notes on the hihats during the verse until they switch to destroying their cymbals during the chorus.

With the right drummer you can back the mic off and it will sound a little more natural.  With the wrong drummer, close micing is all you have.  Most of the time, I detest the sound of the bottom of the snare, but it's a great reverb send if you're into that sort of thing.

Personally, I've had good results with just sucking out the 200-300Hz in the snare top.  This seams to bring in the natural sound of the snare, even if it requires unnatural methods.  My guess is the proximity effect is adding too much boom and taking it back out seams to put the snare back in its place.  Then again, every and I mean EVERY situation is different.

Brandon

josh

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Re: Mr. Fix-it... snare drum mic placement ??
« Reply #9 on: May 22, 2004, 07:14:28 AM »

brandondrury wrote on Sat, 22 May 2004 07:41

 every and I mean EVERY situation is different.



Ahh, not for me...  I'm always recording one of a small number of drummers, so it's a repeating project.  Same players, same drums (usually mine).

My thing is, the way they play it, that's the way it's going to tape.  If they play so the hi hat is too loud for my taste, I'm not going to try and fix that with recording technique and I know it's futile (therefore counterproductive, don't even try) to try and change the way they play.  If it's a big problem, we talk about bringing in a different drummer.

YMMV.

I broke a stick and can't continue my testing until I get some more.

studiojimi

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Re: Mr. Fix-it... snare drum mic placement ??
« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2004, 11:04:18 AM »

Fletcher wrote on Thu, 20 May 2004 16:48

Thanks for the compliment... but that's no more "the Fletcher technique" than the 3 mic drum thing... it was done years before I was born by engineers far more expert than I will probably ever be.

As for using it with a close mic, no.  That's the only mic I ever use.

Best of luck.


is your cape drum dound you did for the savannah boys in team fringe and example of this?


and a question or 2

how (edited in-"well") does it pick up the drummer's "ghost" notes?
this is a valuable part of the dummers perculation which may possibly get lost in a technique of this fashion.

or is the sound of the back beat the main attraction?


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Maxiemixer

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Re: Mr. Fix-it... snare drum mic placement ??
« Reply #11 on: May 26, 2004, 06:55:56 PM »

I've been getting superior results by just backing up the mic from the snare. sometimes just a few mm make a big difference. My usual mic is a sm57 on top and any condenser (best for me the 414) for the bottom. Also try to revere the phase of the top mic (not the bottom). The 3 mic tech, is about to try but I ten to use the less mics is possible.

Ciao
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tom eaton

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Re: Mr. Fix-it... snare drum mic placement ??
« Reply #12 on: May 26, 2004, 07:12:36 PM »

Dave Mattacks turned me on to a cool idea, the last couple of records I've done with him drumming (and he's one of the best at "kit balancing") we've used a Senn431 and a micro condenser (AKG418) as close to each other as possible, both over the drum, with the 431 pointed about 2 inches into the head (capsule about an inch and a half over the rim) and the micro pointed STRAIGHT down at the rim.  The 431 is the meat and the micro is the crack, you can balance the sound on a tune by tune basis on the faders.  

One of my favorite snare sounds I've ever gotten was using an ATM 25...just a silly amount of body.

Then again, I still like reverb on snare drums...

-tom
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Jim Dugger

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Re: Mr. Fix-it... snare drum mic placement ??
« Reply #13 on: May 27, 2004, 08:56:28 AM »

The right snare drum can make a difference, too.

For recording, I often like a 13".  The sound coming off a drum like this is often ready-to-go and won't require much processing in the mix unless you want that steely-dan "tic" snare drum sound.  I keep a wood one around with a Remo Fibreskin head for a warmer/dryer sound, and I have a Tama Steel one with an Aquarian Hi-Energy for something with a lot of crack.

If I have to record a weak-ass player or I want a deeper rock sound I put my Zildjian Alloy snare drum in there.  It's loud.  Really loud.  

But, the best advice I can give you is "if 80+% of your snare drum soud isn't coming from the overheads, get a new drummer!"

Here's the deal:  If the drummer doesn't *hit* the snare, it still sounds like a weak snare.  The 13" drums are cool because they are small and sound like they are being completely just taken over, owned and shown who's the man without having to hit quite so hard.  This sound drives the energy of a song.

Think of it like this:  You know how when you have a sample of a rock snare and you turn it down in the mix so it's nice and soft for a ballad?  Sounds completely wrong, right?  I mean, you have this *crack*, or this *beef*, and what it amounts to is a snare drum that's being played at the top of it's range but turned down in the mix to not be too loud.  It sounds absolutely *goofball*.

The reverse is also true.  There's almost no point in close micing a snare to make it loud for a metal song if the guy isn't HITTING the snare to make the right kind of sound in the first place.  If you have a guy with a left-hand pussy, I'd suggest using a v-drum pad for his snare and just trigger the right sound.  At least you get something.

Now I'm rambling.  Recording crappy drummers sucks.
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josh

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Re: Mr. Fix-it... snare drum mic placement ??
« Reply #14 on: May 27, 2004, 09:38:07 AM »

Jim Dugger wrote on Thu, 27 May 2004 13:56

The right snare drum can make a difference, too.

For recording, I often like a 13".

 ....

Recording crappy drummers sucks.


The drums I usually record are a 12x6 maple snare and a 13x4 maple snare.  I generally prefer the 12x6 tuned lower for softer, ballady-type songs or wherever the rimshot is not dominant, and I keep a textured head on it for brushes.  I like the 13x4 for any serious rock tune...  it's a 10-lug drum with a beefy rim and it wails.  That reminds me, I need new heads for both of these drums.  For this next bit of sessions, for familiarity, I considered trying the drummer's drum (14x6 maple Ludwig, decent drum) but if it doesn't immediately sing, we'll swap.

Regarding crappy drummers, this is not the problem, and it's a moot point anyway since the next year's worth of drum sessions for me will be the same drummer.

The OH drum sound is very good and the snare sounds great from the overheads but just does not have quite enough "oomph".  Blends into the background a bit too much.  It's not a balance thing, it's a timing thing.  I just need a snare mic to be able to bring the snare into its proper place in the mix.

Well off to GC today to get some new heads & sticks and I'll be back to experimenting this weekend.  Maybe get some "real" tracks done this weekend.
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