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[Klaus Heyne]

This auction
  http://cgi.ebay.com/VF14-TELEFUNKEN-TUBE-1-FOR-MICROPHONE-UN   OPENED-BOX-NOS_W0QQitemZ200201223768QQihZ010QQcategoryZ67816 QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
is not even over yet, but we are already past $2,000.- for a supposedly "unopened" VF14 M tube. Read this whole thread for a big surprise!

Quote:

Up for auction is a Telefunken VF14 tube #1, these have been recently recovered from a audio estate sale, I believe this is used for the old Neumann microphones, This tube is unopened, it looks to be new. This one has the the numbers 077. and the letter M and gr printed on the box, Im not shure what they indicate, It is untested as I don't have the equipment to test it.

[kats]

Nice pictures of the box...

Odd that there's no pic of the tube in the auction. What I find interesting is how this fella is selling tubes but is "playing dumb" about this one. Some bad feedback too.

[Martin Kantola]

How would it have been possible for Neumann to test the tube for "M" specs without opening it?

Martin

[Klaus Heyne]

My guess is:
Neumann tested all tubes delivered to it from Telefunken FIRST, kept most of the (M) quality for U47/48 production, then released:

1. those that passed (M) to be packaged by Telefunken as Neumann spares, to be sold by Neumann and its dealer/distributor network to U47/48 owners or for warranty.

2. those that did not pass (non-M) returned for general distribution by Telefunken to radio supply stores and the like.


A reminder: Telefunken was part-owner of Neumann, so I assume dealings back and forth were made easy.

[Martin Kantola]

Yeah, that makes perfect sense! Or then they simply had a supply of TFK seals at Neumann. And that famous "M" rubber stamp.

Martin

[KB_S1]

Bit of a risk to spend this amount on something that might be nothing more than a broken lightbulb now.

Can no one feasibly re create these components. Is it just a case of costs far outweighing the potential return?

[compasspnt]

Anyone who would buy the valve at that price without at the very least seeing perfect photographs of it from relevant angles is mad.

The seller is very obviously playing dumb with his copy.

[J.J. Blair]

I used to think eBay was a good thing.

It's suspicious that the winner's ID is kept private, because this seller had some questionable transactions in the past, all with the same buyer.  It got so that I even reported him for possible shill bidding.

[API]

The same guy sold a bunch of VF14 tubes and power supplies a few months back, I think there was a discussion here about the auctions.
Looks like the same pictures were used now again.
I know Wunder audio won several VF 14 auctions then, but I can´t see any feedback from them when I check the sellers feedback.

Could be that he is trying to scam/drive up prices of his own gear.

[panman]

API wrote on Fri, 22 February 2008 20:08

Could be that he is trying to scam/drive up prices of his own gear.

Things like this seem to happen more frequently. If this is the case, how does it happen? I came to the conclusion, that it could be done like this:
The seller has at least two "friends" bidding and the price sky-rockets up. If a third party wins the auction: fine. If one of the "friends" would win: the object would be put on auction again, but later. But the message to the buyers badly in need of or wanting the rare object is clear: "you want one, you go need to pay this much" and the buyers are likely to pay higher prices. And the "friends"can again safely bid along to boost the price even more, because the bidders remain secret at least for the bidders.
Perhaps alert guys get suspicious and report it, but if an investigation starts at all(the rules explicitly state there has to be proof), they will have a hard time to prove, that anything nasty was going on. The Ebay-fees were paid, perhaps the feedbacks given too,the receipts can be produced even if the merchandice or money was not changing hands. If the "friends" are requested to show, what they bought, it can be easily arranged, especially if the seller still has the object. Perhaps the transaction was not taking place because the parties in mutual agreement decided to withdraw. There are ways.
In case of rare valves, where only the box is shown and no serial numbers are visible, it is not a problem to put the same gear for sale again.
I sincerelly hope that there are flaws in my thinking and I do hope something can be done against this type of cheating!
If not, get informed about the real prices(difficult) and just refuse to pay any mad prices!
Regards,
       Esa

[MagnetoSound]

I'm sure there are no flaws in your thinking, Esa.

And I'm sure too, that we have all had these thoughts with regard to auctions like this.

I have, once or twice, attempted to contact the winners of certain items, to check whether items that I thought were sold, and then appeared for sale again, were in fact sold the first time. Needless to say, this approach is rarely fruitful.

There is no doubt in my mind that these practices go on, you just have to be very careful - and maybe eBay really isn't the place to be purchasing ultra-rare and unverifiable items like VF14s, at  least not any more.


Dan

[Klaus Heyne]

I would challenge a couple of your conclusions, but I will be wide open to be corrected if I am wrong: My book will contain a whole chapter on eBay strategies for purcasing vintage microphones, and, more than anything, I'd like to give useful, valid advice in the book.

panman wrote on Fri, 22 February 2008 12:53

...it could be done like this: The seller has at least two "friends" bidding and the price sky-rockets up. If a third party wins the auction: fine. If one of the "friends" would win: the object would be put on auction again, but later.

How would you do shill bidding on serial-numbered items sold more than once by the same seller? EBay would shut the auction down, and, before that, alert forum users would alert us here about any such scam.

Quote:

But the message to the buyers badly in need of or wanting the rare object is clear: "you want one, you go need to pay this much" and the buyers are likely to pay higher prices.

Given that every bidder in very auction should at least understand and adhere to some basics required in any auction bidding, like setting a comfortable upper limit for oneself and sticking to it, and not chasing your own bids in the last few minutes of a run-away- bidding war, a buyer will not likely pay higher prices than the supply and demand at the time had established.
I was one of the bidders in this auction, but I bid an amout low enough that I could afford a total loss, in case this was a scam (still am not clear what nature the scam would be) or in case the tube was bad (outside the discretion and intention of the seller) , but, in any way, I bid an amount which I thought was reasonable, knowing what I know about the market for VF14. (Though I must admit, I tapped into about every bit of knowledge and experience I had about the matter, to exclude as much as possible being defrauded.)

If the supply and demand-derived price for VF14s seems outrageous, an attitude adjustment on the side of the buyer may be in order. Vintage mics and accessories are currently experiencing unprecedented price increases, and one may as well get used to them sooner rather than later, without resorting to panic buying or bidding.

[Gone]

Klaus Heyne wrote on Sat, 23 February 2008 10:07

I bid an amount which I thought was reasonable, knowing what I know about the market for VF14. (Though I must admit, I tapped into about every bit of knowledge and experience I had about the matter, to exclude as much as possible being defrauded.) If the supply and demand-derived price for VF14s seems outrageous, an attitude adjustment on the side of the buyer may be in order.

A big part of the problem is that eBay "Completed Listing" prices are often used as a barometer for the market value of vintage mics (and rare tubes).

It would be extremely hard for an individual seller to impact the perceived market value of a "pre-A" U87, for example, because they are bought and sold regularly. Likewise, if someone tried to drive up the price by shill bidding, it's probable that other people with "vintage" U87s would start listing them, in the hope of making a big profit. The scam would soon be apparent, because those mics would not fetch such prices.

In the case of rarer items, it would be fairly easy to "own" the Completed Listing history, and use shill bidding to increase the perceived value. Obviously, things like serial numbers are a giveaway - but do people notice?

There are some people on this forum (especially our moderator) who know more about the value of vintage mics and tubes, partially because they have more information about the prices actually being paid for them - in private sales - and really know just how rare certain items are.

The average person who wants to buy (or sell) a vintage mic is going to use eBay to determine value. They may also use dealers (like Vintage King, Sonic Circus), realizing they are paying a premium since the dealers are "middle-men", and that a pre-sale servicing and warranty are usually part of the deal.

This is why there are so many requests for a "database" of mic value. I understand all the reasons why it's a difficult, potentially misleading, perhaps bad, idea - but a well-conceived database, taking condition, original parts, etc, into account, could be a valuable resource.

[Mike Cleaver]

Unfortunately, there's no site (I know of) that tracks the resale value of "experienced" (the used car term) European and other microphones except for Jim Steele's excellent site on American made microphones.
His Marketwatch page http://www.k-bay106.com/market.htm lists the original selling price (if known,) and the recent high and low selling prices and whether that price is trending up or down.
I can't wait for Klaus' book to be finished and published but until then, the stickies at the top of the forum contain some good advice on Ebay buying.

[Norm McCleary]

Unfortunately I was a previous winner of one of these tubes. I got a dead light bulb, by the time I received the item and was able to have Gunter Wagner check it I was out of time.

I made a mistake in giving good feedback when item eventually arrived and not when tested. The guy is very carefull not to use any payment service and will not refund or exchange dud items. He is playing dumb to avoid refunds. Unfortunately the amount of rip offs comming out of the USA is becomming a real pain in the ass. I now far prefer to deal with the Russians.

Norm McCleary