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Author Topic: Isn't there a plugin that simulates an A/D clipping stage?  (Read 3993 times)

TNT_Studios

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Isn't there a plugin that simulates an A/D clipping stage?
« on: October 04, 2008, 02:38:17 pm »

Hi friends from PSW ,

this is my first post in the forum , thanks for great help ,

my question is -- why isn't there a plugin that simulates an A/D clipping stage?

I,m looking for LOUDNESS  Shocked  , is wrong but these are the times we living in ....

The Voxengo Team tell me that I could try Elephant in the Clip mode at
8x oversampling to get close

What you think?


Riauuuu  
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Darius van H

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Re: Isn't there a plugin that simulates an A/D clipping stage?
« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2008, 03:08:08 pm »

gclip - free

TNT_Studios

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Re: Isn't there a plugin that simulates an A/D clipping stage?
« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2008, 03:27:31 pm »

Thanks a lot , Darius

good help till I save the money for my analog chain ( I hope to get this Christmas my HEDD 192 , Massive Passive ..... )

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Andrew Hamilton

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Re: Isn't there a plugin that simulates an A/D clipping stage?
« Reply #3 on: October 05, 2008, 12:32:26 am »

Wow.  And I thought people clipped the ADC because it was less audible (the clipping) than doing it elsewhere in the chain!  Deliberate clipping just for the shred of it.  It doesn't even have to result in more average level, anymore.  Now that's post-modernism.  



Andrew  

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Steffen

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Re: Isn't there a plugin that simulates an A/D clipping stage?
« Reply #5 on: October 05, 2008, 11:51:56 am »

sonnox inflator has a clipmode too
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Noah Mintz

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Re: Isn't there a plugin that simulates an A/D clipping stage?
« Reply #6 on: October 05, 2008, 06:36:02 pm »

the clipping of the AD stage is not what gives you loudness. the clipping of the AD stage is the side-effect of hitting the AD harder than you should. I don't know of anyone who finds this sound pleasing, it's just better (in a high end converter) than the side-effects of using a plug-in.

if you don't have a high-end AD, you definitely don't want a plug-in that creates that effect.

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cerberus

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Re: Isn't there a plugin that simulates an A/D clipping stage?
« Reply #7 on: October 06, 2008, 02:30:55 am »

i'm with noah. do you want to clip something? just stick
into protools and push up a fader until your ears bleed.

at some point, distortion becomes indistinguishable from
pure noise; when there is no longer any spectral
corellation to the source program material.
we call this "clipping". m.e's generally are
paid to not destroy things. that "people
do", i think is some urban legend.

jeff dinces

TotalSonic

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Re: Isn't there a plugin that simulates an A/D clipping stage?
« Reply #8 on: October 06, 2008, 10:44:01 pm »

I respectfully disagree with the previous 2 posts - not all clipping - whether via overloading an analog gain stage, the input of an ADC, a digital gain stage, or a digital plugin - sounds the same!!!  

In fact it can sound very different - i.e. clipping in GClip ime often results with less crackle type artifacts with low end frequencies more pronounced (albeit with a little more distortion in mids) than using Voxengo Elephant 2.7 (which tends to have more crackle artifacts when pushed and emphasizes mids over lows) when set for the same amount of gain reduction.  

And overloading the input of a Mytek Stereo96 (which handles hard clipping fine, but not outstandingly) sounds markedly different than doing the same with a Burl B2 (which handles it the best of any ADC I've ever auditioned), and definitely different than a Digi002 (which to my ear sounds like @ss as soon as it clips at all).

Anyway - as far as digital clipping with a plugin goes I've found the freeware GClip remarkably can often work very well for material with heavy kicks and snares (i.e. hiphop, heavy rock) - and for these types of material occasionally gives superior results when going for very high average levels than using more sophisticated (and pricier) digital limiters set to the same amount of gain reduction.  

Obviously OMMV - but the fact remains that when you are forced by client request to get extremely high average levels clipping often retains transients (i.e. snap and punch) better than digital limiters - albeit at the sacrifice of greater added distortion relative to that added by a limiter.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

Darius van H

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Re: Isn't there a plugin that simulates an A/D clipping stage?
« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2008, 02:23:03 am »

Noah Mintz wrote on Sun, 05 October 2008 17:36


if you don't have a high-end AD, you definitely don't want a plug-in that creates that effect.




Definately?...........i've used this technique on many releases and had a lot of very happy customers.

I don't like clipping the converter because it paints you into a loudness corner. There are also some projects that i want to keep ITB.

cerberus

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Re: Isn't there a plugin that simulates an A/D clipping stage?
« Reply #10 on: October 07, 2008, 03:47:08 am »

steve;

i think the differences in "overload charachter" you and i both hear among various converters
has to do with the response and headroom of the analogue sections of those devices.
i think we could agree that digital clipping happens at once as soon as the
flxed point registers overfill. i think it would not be correct to insinuate
that there could be "degrees of clipping" in the digital domain.

jeff dinces

TotalSonic

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Re: Isn't there a plugin that simulates an A/D clipping stage?
« Reply #11 on: October 12, 2008, 04:53:31 pm »

cerberus wrote on Tue, 07 October 2008 03:47

steve;

i think the differences in "overload charachter" you and i both hear among various converters
has to do with the response and headroom of the analogue sections of those devices.
i think we could agree that digital clipping happens at once as soon as the
flxed point registers overfill. i think it would not be correct to insinuate
that there could be "degrees of clipping" in the digital domain.

jeff dinces



Jeff -
Again, very direct experience has shown to me that digital clipping routines can sound very radically different - i.e. what the software does when encountering what would essentially be a wrap around can be handled very differently, resulting in anything from outright distortion and harsh crackling and clicking as soon as digital zero is exceeded in one method, to seemingly "transparent" and relatively undistorted output despite a large amount of gain reduction occurring in another.  One thing that a number of digital clipping plugins offer  is the ability to oversample prior to processing, which generally can markedly reduce aliasing distortions, along with the ability to control the amount of knee for "soft clipping / soft saturation."  Digital gain stages in various DAW apps and plugins also will often handle incidences of clipping very differently as well.  

If you still don't believe me I'll see if I can get some time to post some samples of this - and again - in my direct experience the resulting differences are not subtle at all!

It should also be noted that a number of ADC's also have optional DSP routines (i.e. Lavry Gold's "Soft Saturation" or their Black ADC's "transformer" or "tube" options) that will also handle overs differently than ones  without these DSP routines.  Otherwise I agree that the differences of the analog front end in ADC's is more often what allows resulting audio the when their inputs are overloaded to have different sounds - although again - not all ADC's will handle overs the same way in their digital back end either.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

TotalSonic

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Re: Isn't there a plugin that simulates an A/D clipping stage?
« Reply #12 on: October 12, 2008, 04:57:03 pm »

Darius van H wrote on Tue, 07 October 2008 02:23

Noah Mintz wrote on Sun, 05 October 2008 17:36


if you don't have a high-end AD, you definitely don't want a plug-in that creates that effect.




Definately?...........i've used this technique on many releases and had a lot of very happy customers.

I don't like clipping the converter because it paints you into a loudness corner. There are also some projects that i want to keep ITB.



Definitely seconded!  I've also found in many instances when trying to fulfill requests for very high average levels for material where preserving transients took precedence over minimizing distortion that both the client and myself were happier with the end when using a digital clipping plugin instead of clipping at the ADC or using a digital limiter.  For some instances combining two or even all three methods worked best as well.  Whatever works is all good by me!

Best regards,
Steve Berson

JCMastering

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Re: Isn't there a plugin that simulates an A/D clipping stage?
« Reply #13 on: October 15, 2008, 09:40:26 pm »

TotalSonic wrote on Sun, 12 October 2008 15:53


If you still don't believe me I'll see if I can get some time to post some samples of this


Please post the samples. Thanks.
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cerberus

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Re: Isn't there a plugin that simulates an A/D clipping stage?
« Reply #14 on: October 16, 2008, 07:58:04 am »

steve;

i don't think we disagree all that much. i espouse a dogmatic position
here because: like darius said: "it paints you into a corner".  in
dispassionate terms, i see this as a compression process
without the envelope control, without time
domain governance;  i could think of two
classes of dynamics devices to try first.

(and i assume that the input component
that will be acted on is in fact, already
close to white noise, or filtered
white noise, because that is
what is going to come out.)

that said, you have excellent
taste and judgement. and
experience; which imo is
most important here.

jeff dinces
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