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Author Topic: Round Room  (Read 2956 times)

andrewmazzone

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Round Room
« on: February 19, 2008, 01:42:37 pm »

We've moved into a new studio and it appears that, due to immovable walls, intractable permitting, and other factors, that we are going to have a round room as our control room.  It cannot be helped- we're going to have to live with it.
Anyone ever deal with this before?
I will try to post some pictures later.
Thanks
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Ethan Winer

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Re: Round Room
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2008, 04:23:28 pm »

Round is a problem because concave shapes focus sound. But this is easily solved with absorption.

--Ethan

rankus

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Re: Round Room
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2008, 05:55:00 pm »



Perhaps adding some flat panels is an option?

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Rick Welin - Clark Drive Studios http://www.myspace.com/clarkdrivestudios

Ive done stuff I'm not proud of.. and the stuff I am proud of is disgusting ~ Moe Sizlack

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gullfo

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Re: Round Room
« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2008, 10:23:12 am »

i agree, i think you can (assuming you have room) add treatment walls to shape the space correctly.

http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/5374/exampleroundroomvk0.th.jpg
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Glenn Stanton

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andrewmazzone

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Re: Round Room
« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2008, 01:05:07 pm »

Thanks guys- as long as I know it's not an impossible problem I can move forward.  I had actually thought that adding flat panels in a hexagonal shape might be OK, so thanks for confirming that.
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gullfo

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Re: Round Room
« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2008, 05:15:54 pm »

keep in mind you still want to work on getting the mix location correctly balanced which may be a combination of bass trapping, broadband and porous absorption, and panels, slats, etc..
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Glenn Stanton

www.runnel.com/

franman

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Re: Round Room
« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2008, 08:02:11 pm »

yeah Glenn's idea really is the way to go, if you are forced into this situation.. but be advised, it's still 'bad mojo'...The modal response will be very hard to deal with and the trapping won't solve that. Also, focusing at lower frequencies will still occur and combined with the powerful loaded modal response, it may be difficult to get a reasonble low end response at the mix position...

Of course, there are others in our field, who believe that the focusing at the front end of the room, along with wide dispersion loudspeakers is the only way to go?? Confused

Anybody know or remember what (or who) I'm referring to?? It's a subject that got me pretty riled up a few years ago.. enough so to actually write a letter to Mix Magazine..I'm not typically big on writing letters, but this one spurred a bit of controverial banter over the Primedia Publications (letters in reply to my letters, hate mails, emails supporting my letter, etc....)

I digress.. (what else is new?)

fm
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Greg Reierson

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Re: Round Room
« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2008, 08:14:07 pm »

Are his initials DM???


GR
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avare

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Re: Round Room
« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2008, 10:08:53 pm »

I really dislike (no,hate) making veiled remarks. but this is one the few cases I feel it is appropriate. I have no desire to have some copy type say "DM's designs as discussed by AV on FM's website."  

The most telling thing to me is total lack of any indication of any studios built to that design concept this century.  Chips Davis' LEDE, though short lived was widely accepted until the current design concepts were developed, and have evolved since the mid eighties.  Why has apparently nothing happened with DM designed rooms?

Andre
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andrewmazzone

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Re: Round Room
« Reply #9 on: February 21, 2008, 01:03:16 pm »

If I can go back to Glen's comment for a second:
Maybe this picture will help a bit.
The round room is actually a turret in an old Nat'l Guard armory that was designed to look like a castle in 1905 or so.  index.php/fa/7735/0/
This picture faces into the round area.  The mix position would be at the outer edge of the semi-circle (facing out of the circle) and probably the console and speakers would be in the rectangular part of the room.  I will not be sitting in the circle, but, of course, the speakers would be firing into it.  
I have read (and learned) a lot from you all about the primary importance of the first reflection and bass trapping.  Anymore thoughts on this?

Thanks all.
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rankus

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Re: Round Room
« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2008, 03:05:10 pm »



Maybe run a false "wall" across the back of the room and fill it with rockwool?  This will give you a more squared off shape as well as heavy bass trapping...  (take with a grain of salt as I am no acoustician)

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Rick Welin - Clark Drive Studios http://www.myspace.com/clarkdrivestudios

Ive done stuff I'm not proud of.. and the stuff I am proud of is disgusting ~ Moe Sizlack

"There is no crisis in energy, the crisis is in imagination" ~ Buckminster Fuller

gullfo

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Re: Round Room
« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2008, 11:25:06 pm »

maybe if we had the entire floor plan we could be more effective?  even with treatment you'd really want to make some inner boundary walls to offset the round room effects... maybe if there is enough room in the rectangular portion, block off the round section and make it a  unique booth of some kind with rock walls on a couple of flattened sections...
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Glenn Stanton

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franman

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Re: Round Room
« Reply #12 on: February 25, 2008, 10:36:49 pm »

Okay.. I only continue this because it directly relates to the subject of this post. The letter to Mix was in Jan 2000 referring to a guest article printed in the Nov 1999 issue... We took issue with the assertations of this artice. The initials are not DM.. below is the text of my letter... so that their are no veiled comments (and I agree with you Andre... my bad!)..As I said, this is all directly related to the subject of this post and thus I reprint it here as an educational item only. This is my original letter:

Dear Editor,

Back in November (1999) when our issue arrived and we read Mr. LaCarrubba’s article (“The Wide Dispersion Listening Space”) we had a big problem with a lot of his assertions. We thought hard about writing to Mix to ask who reads these guest articles and verifies the validity of the “facts” contained within. We didn’t (our fault). Now along comes January and we have read Mr. Schrag’s response to the article (Feedback) as well as Mr. Moulton’s reply, and we just can’t stand it anymore!!  Over the past ten years or so, Lars Tofastrud and myself have also spent a good amount of time documenting how sound “bounces around a room”. Through testing and listening, we have come to understand and accept the basic principals of small room acoustics. Not only do we find most of Mr. LaCarrubba’s assertions to be contrary to most of the “facts” as we understand them, we are in complete agreement with the response as presented by Mr. Schrag.

Depth of imaging and sound-staging are part of the signal “captured” in a recording whenever one or more microphones are setup in such a fashion as to capture the time based information of the space where the original instrument was recorded. Presenting these signals accurately through a high quality loudspeaker system, into a playback environment, is what our business is all about. The listening environment must be void of significant early reflections within the first 20 msec or so, in order to not mask the time information that is captured in the recording. These “Localization Cues” that Mr. LaCarrubba refers to in his article are not supposed to be introduced by the listening environment. Lateral short reflections will only detract from the original recordings timbral and time information by adding comb filtering effects, regardless of whether these reflections are full bandwidth or not. This is not an issue of frequency, but one of time.

Also, although we agree that reflected sound can help localize a source, this is absolutely NOT what we want to do with loudspeakers. In all the rooms that we’ve been in that “Sound Good” (whether we designed them or not!) the localization of  the loudspeakers is not what makes the music deep and enveloping. The illusion of the loud speakers “disappearing” is what makes for the most palpable sound staging and musical presentation. This is only achieved when early reflection in the listening environment are controlled and the Initial Time Gap (ITG) is free of significant reflections (in the range of -24 dB in relation to the direct signal from the loudspeakers).  We DO NOT agree with  Mr. Moulton assertion that loudspeakers in a playback environment should be thought of as a musical instrument with regard to their interaction with the room in which they sit.  Yes, our auditory system (ear) is very good at making use of acoustic reflections, and yes, these reflection help us localize sound. However, if we are to “…perceive a unique signal sent to a single loud speaker as coming from that loudspeaker” then the room must not color the sound from the loudspeakers with early reflections. Such reflections would only serve to cloud the localization information encoded in the recording. At that point we are actually “listening” to TWO rooms; the one in which the music was originally recorded AND the listening room. The confusion presents itself when you try and figure out which room you’re hearing!  As Mr. Schrag said, these reflections are not “Good Data” in a listening environment. We are concerned that this most basic concept of small room acoustics and psycho-acoustics is being misrepresented, and presented to readership as fact. We just don’t want these commonly misunderstood concepts to be further confused.

Francis Manzella – President: Francis Manzella Design Ltd.
Lars Tofastrud – Associate Designer: Francis Manzella Design Ltd.
Yorktown Heights, NY

______________________________________________

The important concept here was summarized by Mr. Schrag's letter: "Reproduction should not be confused with Production".. this just about sums it all up.
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Francis Manzella - President, FM Design Ltd.
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Ethan Winer

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Re: Round Room
« Reply #13 on: February 26, 2008, 12:52:25 pm »

That's a great letter Fran. Would you believe there's a new "movement" afoot to promote the importance of early reflections? Your point that speakers in a room are not a musical instrument is correct, and it amazes me that everyone does not understand this. Resonances and coloration are appropriate in a violin, but not in a listening room!

--Ethan
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