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Author Topic: George....what's the resolution of analog?  (Read 135992 times)

Nika Aldrich

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Re: George....what's the resolution of analog?
« Reply #225 on: June 24, 2004, 11:40:38 AM »

lucey wrote on Thu, 24 June 2004 16:31

It's as basic as asking yourself this ... if you were a kid which waterslide would you rather ride?

a) the smoothe and wet one with some friction and a few slight turns, or

b) the one with tiny stair steps and perfectly even friction, straight down?



Scientific minds are of great help to many aspects of music, but the scientific ear does not hear the subtleties of the stair steps as the catastophic loss of integrity that musicians hear.


Why are you ignoring the role of the reconstruction filter at the end of the D/A converter?

Digital does NOT have all of the stair-steps that you describe.  Digital is only a representation of the waveform - NOT the waveform itself.  The original waveform still has to be reconstructed from the sample points.  Simply doing a "dot to dot" or sample-hold reconstruction is clearly inadequate, as neither of those re-create the original waveform.  When proper reconstruction filtering is done there is no  "stair-stepping," and continuing to refer to such obfuscates the way in which digital actually works and confuses the questions.

Nika.
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Re: George....what's the resolution of analog?
« Reply #226 on: June 24, 2004, 12:31:30 PM »

lucey

 

Digital maintains linearity to varying smaller degrees with better technology, yet changes the fundamental quality of the sound from a vibe to a number.  This simple fact is the whole biscuit.

It's as basic as asking yourself this ... if you were a kid which waterslide would you rather ride?

a) the smoothe and wet one with some friction and a few slight turns, or

b) the one with tiny stair steps and perfectly even friction, straight down?



Hi Brian,,

I think you are - by intuition - mentioning one of the most important distortion mechanisms in digital audio.

During playback we have to generate a analog signal out of squares. Even if the DAC chip has some inbuildt analog filter, it was squares in the beginning.

And squares consist of 3rd order harmonics only and the faster the settling time of your DAC the sharper the edge, and the higher the harmonics go.

So a lot of the art of making digital sound good, lies in smoothing the squares. Oversampling reduces the stepsize (at least with R2R converters), but does not reduce the sharpness of the square's edges.

I have made good sounding result with a RLC filters and transformers. The inductivity presents an inertia for fast signals.

Charles Smile
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Re: George....what's the resolution of analog?
« Reply #227 on: June 24, 2004, 01:53:42 PM »

All inductors are wave shaping devices, including the voice coils of your loudspeakers. The key is to have the signal throught the chain represent music and emotion. Whatever it takes to get there is fine by me as long as the emotion translates universally. May audiophiles "love" tubes due to the fact that the output transformers (iron/nickle/cobalt etc) reshape the signal to distortions that are more pleasing to them.
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RobertRandolph

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Re: George....what's the resolution of analog?
« Reply #228 on: June 24, 2004, 03:57:46 PM »

What the heck is all this talk about squares!?!

I really dont see where a lot of you are getting information from... IF you plot a sine wave on a peice of paper, given 2 points... are you plotting squares?! NO. Because you have a mathmatic formula telling you it is a sine or cosine. Likewise, with digital audio conversions, we know it will be a sine. So the converter does not just "draw squares".

Likewise, if it is a square wav, saw, triangle etc.. You must remember this is  combonation of sine waves with various harmonics at specific amplitudes and intervals. Still sines.
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lucey

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Re: George....what's the resolution of analog?
« Reply #229 on: June 24, 2004, 11:22:27 PM »

Chuck wrote on Thu, 24 June 2004 11:31



Hi Brian,,

I think you are - by intuition - mentioning one of the most important distortion mechanisms in digital audio.

During playback we have to generate a analog signal out of squares. Even if the DAC chip has some inbuildt analog filter, it was squares in the beginning.

And squares consist of 3rd order harmonics only and the faster the settling time of your DAC the sharper the edge, and the higher the harmonics go.



Wow, a tech who is not afraid to say the word "intuition"

Cool looking product on your site Chuck, the Tube-u-lator laquer ... interesting indeed.

(You should change your signature line so we can easily link your website)

RobertRandolph wrote on Thu, 24 June 2004 14:57

What the heck is all this talk about squares!?!

I really dont see where a lot of you are getting information from... IF you plot a sine wave on a peice of paper, given 2 points... are you plotting squares?! NO. Because you have a mathmatic formula telling you it is a sine or cosine. Likewise, with digital audio conversions, we know it will be a sine. So the converter does not just "draw squares".



Doesn't a converter draw sines of a slope that is a guess?  And if so are they perfect reproductions of the original curve?

How can they be when an A to D measures in samples and a D to A tries to remember the curve?

And just for fun, what if a "perfect" and distortion free reproduction is not the most musical?  what would you do then?

(Maybe the ATR 2" 8 track is the most musical recorder ever made as it has lower distortion and noise floor yet the ear-like non-linearities of all tape recording?

Although my Pacific Microsonics Model One is pretty sweet on the 2ch. A to D and D to A )


Quote:


Likewise, if it is a square wav, saw, triangle etc.. You must remember this is  combonation of sine waves with various harmonics at specific amplitudes and intervals. Still sines.


Then what are those 3rd harmonics all about?  When will they go away?

And where is the full impulse energy of the wave as it was played in the air?  It does go away with digital ... any digital.  It is distorted by present with analog, any analog.
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steve parker

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Re: George....what's the resolution of analog?
« Reply #230 on: June 25, 2004, 08:50:23 AM »

 quotes all Brian:

 "Doesn't a converter draw sines of a slope that is a guess?"

no - a perfect reconstruction of the original

  "And if so are they perfect reproductions of the original curve?"

yes

  "How can they be when an A to D measures in samples and a D to A tries to
   remember the curve?"

DA doesn't "remember" anything.
the "snapshot" idea is wrong - an AD gets the information needed to completely accurately reconstruct the wave - subject only to the condition that the highest frequency you're sampling must be slightly less than half the sampling rate.
increasing the sampling "snapshots" ONLY allows you to capture higher frequencies.
it doesn't allow you to better capture the ones capturable by lower rates.

   "And just for fun, what if a "perfect" and distortion free reproduction is not
    the most musical?  what would you do then?

give up!
seriously, if you want less than perfect distorted music that is a creative choice.
BUT, less than perfect distorted REPRODUCTION is a contradiction in terms.






   "Likewise, if it is a square wav, saw, triangle etc.. You must remember this is
   combonation of sine waves with various harmonics at specific amplitudes
   and intervals. Still sines.
    Then what are those 3rd harmonics all about?  When will they go away?"

the "third harmonics" is one backwards extrapolation too far - from sample-hold to actually understanding the information as a stair-step picture to square waves. this is just the wrong way to think about the information - more "snapshotiness"

   "And where is the full impulse energy of the wave as it was played in the air?
     It does go away with digital ... any digital.  It is distorted by present with
      analog, any analog. "

can you explain exactly what you mean?
this sounds like you are suggesting that digital doesn't capture inital peaks as well as any analog?

all the best!

steve parker.
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Nika Aldrich

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Re: George....what's the resolution of analog?
« Reply #231 on: June 25, 2004, 10:26:35 AM »

lucey wrote on Fri, 25 June 2004 04:22


Doesn't a converter draw sines of a slope that is a guess?  


No, and THAT is the beauty of Nyquist.  Just like we can reconstruct a circle by only capturing 3 points in it, and just like we can reconstruct a line with only two points, we can reconstruct a complex waveform with a certain frequency of sampling, so long as it contains no content above N.  And the amazing thing is that it actually works.  So what the D/A converters do is not a "guess" but rather a very specific process that reconstructs the original waveform from the samples.  There is absolutely no guessing about it.

Even if two sample points happen to be very near the zero crossing but the waveform they represent is at full scale, the original waveform can be extracted based on the previous and following sample points.  There is only one waveform that can fit onto those sample points and is properly band limited.  The task of the converter is to find it.

Quote:

How can they be when an A to D measures in samples and a D to A tries to remember the curve?


I hope we answered this (thanks, Steve).  If I draw a circle on a piece of paper and then sample it at three points and then give you two things:  A.  the knowledge that it is a circle, and B. the three sample points - you can reconstruct the circle.  You aren't "remembering" anything.  

Quote:

And just for fun, what if a "perfect" and distortion free reproduction is not the most musical?  what would you do then?


Probably add some digital processes prior to reconstruction that make it distorted in the most desirable way.

Quote:

Then what are those 3rd harmonics all about?  When will they go away?


Those third harmonics all begin above the Nyquist frequency, so if you filter out everything above Nyquist all of the 3rd harmonics go away and you're left with the original waveform.

Quote:

And where is the full impulse energy of the wave as it was played in the air?  It does go away with digital ... any digital.


What goes away in digital is only the frequency content in the impulse that the human ear can't hear, anyway.  An impulse contains all frequencies, much like white noise.  Our ear filters that and only allows us to hear the frequency content in the impulse that is below around 20kHz.  The waveform that the ear "hears" is nothing like an impulse.  It looks like the impulse response of an IIR filter.  

The task of digital is to present to the ear what the ear hears, so while ALL of the energy of the wave is indeed not captured by digital, since digital filters like the ear does, the entirety of that wave that the ear hears is indeed captured and not distorted.

Nika.
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lucey

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Re: George....what's the resolution of analog?
« Reply #232 on: June 25, 2004, 04:50:29 PM »

Nika Aldrich wrote on Fri, 25 June 2004 09:26


The task of digital is to present to the ear what the ear hears, so while ALL of the energy of the wave is indeed not captured by digital, since digital filters like the ear does, the entirety of that wave that the ear hears is indeed captured and not distorted.

Nika.



So from this perspective which 2 channel converter sounds the most accurate

and which one the most musical, if any different

to you?

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djui5

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Re: George....what's the resolution of analog?
« Reply #233 on: June 25, 2004, 05:36:06 PM »

Nika Aldrich wrote on Fri, 25 June 2004 08:26



The task of digital is to present to the ear what the ear hears, so while ALL of the energy of the wave is indeed not captured by digital, since digital filters like the ear does, the entirety of that wave that the ear hears is indeed captured and not distorted.

Nika.



Nike,

I would say that I disagree......the digital community might want to accomplish this in the end..but is not currently doing so.


Where did you get this from anyways?....digital filters like the ear does?
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Nika Aldrich

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Re: George....what's the resolution of analog?
« Reply #234 on: June 25, 2004, 06:27:08 PM »

djui5 wrote on Fri, 25 June 2004 22:36

Where did you get this from anyways?....digital filters like the ear does?


I'm not sure exactly the nature of your question - there are lots of ways to take it, I suppose.

The ear is a filter just like any other natural device.  There are several factors at work in the ear that cause it to be a filter - The eardrum itself is a transducer with a specific frequency response just like any microphone.  The ossicles are mechanical devices that filter more like the speaker magnet/coil combination.  The oval windowfilters again like a transducer - a microphone or speaker.  Inside the cochlea we have the basilar membrane - essentially a taught piece of material stretched across the basilar membrane.  When liquid flows over it is causes it to resonate.  As with any transducer, however, it has a fixed and specific frequency response.  The fascinating thing about the basilar membrane is that it is long and shaped such that certain frequencies resonate better at different places.  Higher frequencies resonate the basilar membrane closer to the entrance to the cochlea, where the width of the membrane is very small - less than a millimeter.  Lower frequencies resonate better at the opposite end (the helicotrema) where the basilar membrane is wider - around 1.7mm.  This means that each spot on the basilar membrane is actually a filter unto itself, allowing the membrane to only resonate at particular frequencies.  As a whole, however, the basilar membrane is, unto itself, a filter, in that it simply can't resonate at frequencies higher than the mechanical structure, elasticity, and its tautness allows, nor lower than its loosest point allows.  Finally, there is the individual filtering of individual hair cells and their respective neurons.  Each hair cell can only respond to specific frequencies.  The lowest ones can respond to around 10Hz.  The highest ones respond to around 1kHz.  The combination of various of those firing asynchronously provides all audibility between 1kHz and around 4kHz.  Anything above that we only hear based on the physical location on the basilar membrane that causes the hair cell neurons to fire.  Finally, there is the filtering caused by the impedence caused by the round window as the waves of fluid pressure in the inner ear meet the middle ear again.

The combination of all of these filters causes our ears to function as one big filter with several individual components.  This filtering in the ear causes us to have an upper limit at typically a little less than 20kHz, and changing with age and as inner hair cells disintegrate.  The complete shape of the filtering of the ear is not as simple as a few-order IIR filter, but it is safe to say it is a near-minimum phase IIR filter with a .25-.4ms window or so.  The bottom line is that the waveform that reaches the auditory canal is heavily filtered by the time it reaches the VIIIth auditory nerve, and any frequency content outside of certain boundaries is attenuated entirely.  There are other things that are filtered out as well as a result of the masking, etc.  We can understand the difference between what goes into the ear and what gets to the brain by mocking up a simple filter that rolls of at 20kHz and look at what happens when we pass various signals into it - such as an impulse, a sine wave at 25kHz, a square wave at 5kHz, etc.  We notice that what the brain gets with which to decipher the waveform is nothing at all like what enters the auditory canal.

Digital systems also have to filter the audio - in this case to remove frequency content that would allow aliasing.  The filtering used in these digital systems is specifically designed to exceed the boundaries of the human ear, such that any waveform that enters a digital system and then enters the ear would not sound any different than if that waveform were to just enter the ear.  

When I say that digital systems filter audio "like the ear" I do not mean that we use minimum phase IIR filters with the same window, et al, but I do mean that digital systems filter out all material above 20kHz, just like the ear does before it gets sent to the brain.  In fact it is good that the filters in the digital systems are not exactly "like the ear" as the non-linearities in the ear, if compounded by more than one instantiation, would cause audible distortion.  The filters used in digital, therefore, allow no phase-shift so that the only phase-shifting is that which is done by the ear itself, for example.  So long as the filters in the digital systems exceed the boundaries of the ear the audio is capable of being accurately presented to the ear as though the digital systems were not in the circuit.

Of course many methods of cutting corners on these filters have been implemented over the years, including allowing slight amounts of aliasing in, phase shifting the audio at various frequencies, and rolling off some of the viable audible range.  The fact that this has been done in no way insinuates that it has to be, however.

One last point - we have already accepted, have we not (?), that any digital system inherently functions as a filter in that it has strict boundaries, and anything outside of those boundaries is incapable of being transmitted.  The ear is a digital device.  As such, it is a filter and has strict boundaries very much akin to the digital systems designed for its benefit.

I hope this answers your question?

Nika.
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RobertRandolph

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Re: George....what's the resolution of analog?
« Reply #235 on: June 25, 2004, 07:54:08 PM »

lucey wrote on Fri, 25 June 2004 21:50

Nika Aldrich wrote on Fri, 25 June 2004 09:26


The task of digital is to present to the ear what the ear hears, so while ALL of the energy of the wave is indeed not captured by digital, since digital filters like the ear does, the entirety of that wave that the ear hears is indeed captured and not distorted.

Nika.



So from this perspective which 2 channel converter sounds the most accurate

and which one the most musical, if any different

to you?




I think this shows Nika's ideas much more forward thinking than you see...

This question and idea behind it perfectly show why different ears accept different devices to be the epitomy of perfect. As long as we have different ears there will be different devices that best represent what we hear naturally.

Although Im not sure if Nika realizes the beauty of his statement...
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djui5

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Re: George....what's the resolution of analog?
« Reply #236 on: June 25, 2004, 11:15:45 PM »

I see...thanks Nika
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lucey

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Re: George....what's the resolution of analog?
« Reply #237 on: June 30, 2004, 01:04:37 AM »

fuze wrote on Fri, 25 June 2004 07:50



can you explain exactly what you mean?
this sounds like you are suggesting that digital doesn't capture inital peaks as well as any analog?

all the best!

steve parker.



Steve, I admit to a limited understanding of the subtle technicalities of digital recording.  I do know tone however, and specifically I know vibrations.

To my ear any AD DA (even my amazing Pacific Microsonics) is fundamentally altering the waveform's quality.  It becomes something other than analogous to the original sound ... wholly different.

This is a qualitative change, and perhaps something that is not easy to measure or specifically quantify.




So with analog, I hear the original snare transients or guitar picks, or general harmonics, only distorted.

With digital I hear a facsimilie of the original, yet in a more perfectly preserved or perfect state ... of simulation.
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Nika Aldrich

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Re: George....what's the resolution of analog?
« Reply #238 on: June 30, 2004, 10:37:41 AM »

lucey wrote on Wed, 30 June 2004 06:04



Steve, I admit to a limited understanding of the subtle technicalities of digital recording.  I do know tone however, and specifically I know vibrations.


I am not surprised that you hear differences between analog and digital systems.  I've heard your music and work you've mixed, and my personal observation is that you tend toward very rich sounding analog material and equipment.

Quote:

To my ear any AD DA (even my amazing Pacific Microsonics) is fundamentally altering the waveform's quality.


Perhaps the PMi DOES alter the waveform's quality.  How have you tested it and what other converters have you tested - and how?

Nika
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steve parker

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Re: George....what's the resolution of analog?
« Reply #239 on: June 30, 2004, 12:53:27 PM »

"To my ear any AD DA (even my amazing Pacific Microsonics) is fundamentally altering the waveform's quality.  It becomes something other than analogous to the original sound ... wholly different.

This is a qualitative change, and perhaps something that is not easy to measure or specifically quantify."

hi.

this is exactly (usually) my experience too.
my only questions are, "are you sure that every other link in the chain *is* capable of reproduction without alteration?"

and "can you therefore be sure that the ad/da is what is causing this less-than-perfectness?"

steve.





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