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Author Topic: Quest for a good board  (Read 7297 times)

bbkong

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Quest for a good board
« on: May 13, 2004, 12:21:34 PM »

Hi, George.

That's my Dad's name btw, a good one. This is my first post here so I'll be brief and try not to sound as stupid as I really am.

I'm building a new room and doing all the right stuff acoustically, but I'm getting hung up looking for the perfect board for my application.

I'm definitely going digital and kicking back and forth between the Nyquist and Accell, but my biggest question at this stage is the selection of a good board in the $10-20K range.

I'd like to have it in-line and simple to use and maintain. My application is going to be blues and jazz primarily and would like to have something that added warmth if anything at all.

I see that Mackie has some digital stuff coming out and it looks good, but they aren't the only builders out there. Analog would/could be just as nice, and I'm not afraid to pick up something used provided spare parts aren't made of unobtainium.

I'm also not an electronic wiz, so reliability is a factor.

I'm putting a lot of myself into this, my last studio and will probably have to sell a Harley to get it finished, so I'm looking for the best bang for the buck here. I'm not in any big rush either, but I'm not getting any younger.

Yes, I've dug around the internet for months now trying to come up with a decision, but alas...

The most reliable suggestion I've received is the Trident 80b or a Neotek Elite.

Now, without a lot of unfathomable jargon, please, somebody tell me to go get this board or that one and leave us alone.

Thanks. And congrats on you new forum. It's nice to have you around so close.

Joe Moguin
Lost Cause Studio
LA,CA

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bbkong

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Re: Quest for a good board
« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2004, 11:42:34 PM »

Well, this was obviously the wrong place to ask this question.
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tito

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Re: Quest for a good board
« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2004, 04:45:23 AM »

http://www.bewersdorff-online.de/monopoly/monopoly.gif
Yeah? No? Confused

Roberto Arballo
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George Massenburg

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Re: Quest for a good board
« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2004, 08:53:30 AM »

bbkong wrote on Thu, 13 May 2004 11:21

Hi, George.

That's my Dad's name btw, a good one. This is my first post here so I'll be brief and try not to sound as stupid as I really am.


Yeah, good name.  With any luck I'll not appear as stupid as I really am.
Quote:


I'm building a new room and doing all the right stuff acoustically, but I'm getting hung up looking for the perfect board for my application.

[...]

I'd like to have it in-line and simple to use and maintain. My application is going to be blues and jazz primarily and would like to have something that added warmth if anything at all.



Yeah, you and everybody else say they want the same thing...
Quote:


I see that Mackie has some digital stuff coming out and it looks good, but they aren't the only builders out there. Analog would/could be just as nice, and I'm not afraid to pick up something used provided spare parts aren't made of unobtainium.


Unobtainium...I love it.  This was also the name of the plastic with a certain, hard-to-find index of refraction for the dual-layer DVD platform.

Mackie has demonstrated that they aren't likely follow through on their committments to customers.  Why would you choose them for anything?  Also, the Mackie analog stuff is known to be lo-fi...

Quote:


I'm also not an electronic wiz, so reliability is a factor.



Well, reliability is always one of the most important things, I'd think.  But that has nothing to do with you're learning enough tech to make yourself happy.  Listen, there are more and moremusicians out there that aren't electronic wizzes and they're making music just fine without you.  What are you going to do for them, anyway??
Quote:



I'm putting a lot of myself into this, my last studio and will probably have to sell a Harley to get it finished, so I'm looking for the best bang for the buck here. I'm not in any big rush either, but I'm not getting any younger.

Yes, I've dug around the internet for months now trying to come up with a decision, but alas...

[...]



Good.  Let's clear the air right from the start and get you up to speed.  What you want isn't made.  What you want isn't on the internet.  And what you want isn't likely to be made in the very near future.  There are companies that will tell you that they make something or other, and they're not telling you the truth.  Especially about some vague, chimerical "analog" sounding board or box.

Although I'm not going to allow recommendations for equipment to go too far on this forum, I wouldn't have a problem recommending certain technologies if I knew that they worked well together.

I think for now you're going to be putting together your working environment from pieces.

And my advice to you is to definitely keep the Harley if you're into riding it.

George
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bbkong

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Re: Quest for a good board
« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2004, 11:23:29 AM »

Hi, George,

George Massenburg wrote on Fri, 14 May 2004 05:53


Unobtainium...I love it.  This was also the name of the plastic with a certain, hard-to-find index of refraction for the dual-layer DVD platform.


Ah, I learn something new.

Quote:


Mackie has demonstrated that they aren't likely follow through on their committments to customers.


Again, I learn something new.

Quote:


Also, the Mackie analog stuff is known to be lo-fi...


I have one of their VLZ 24's and it seems to work well for live apps, but that's just my opinion. So far it's been bullet proof.
Quote:


Well, reliability is always one of the most important things, I'd think.  But that has nothing to do with you're learning enough tech to make yourself happy.  Listen, there are more and moremusicians out there that aren't electronic wizzes and they're making music just fine without you.  What are you going to do for them, anyway??


Absolutely nothing. I'm building this for myself and a few friends.

Quote:


Let's clear the air right from the start and get you up to speed.  What you want isn't made.  What you want isn't on the internet.  And what you want isn't likely to be made in the very near future.


What I want has probably been around for a while and garnered some respect for performance and reliability.

Quote:


I think for now you're going to be putting together your working environment from pieces.


Correct.

Quote:


And my advice to you is to definitely keep the Harley if you're into riding it.


I have four of them. I'm just moving some assets into more productive areas.

I thought I was clear about seeking suggestions for a quality analog board in that price range. I trust the advice I've already been given, I just thought I'd beat the bush one more time before I throw down 20 grand.

I can do that on a Harley, because that is an area of expertise for me. Analog boards are not an area of my expertise, as I haven't worked with many of them, hence my post.

I can sort out the Nyquist/HD issue myself and likely will get both. I mentioned Mackie because digital mixers seem to be coming forth and of course I'm wondering if they are up to speed yet or if that is still in the future.

I hope that clarifies my question a bit.

Thanks for your time,

Joe
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Mixerman

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Re: Quest for a good board
« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2004, 12:52:16 PM »

bbkong wrote on Fri, 14 May 2004 08:23


I thought I was clear about seeking suggestions for a quality analog board in that price range. I trust the advice I've already been given, I just thought I'd beat the bush one more time before I throw down 20 grand.

I can do that on a Harley, because that is an area of expertise for me. Analog boards are not an area of my expertise, as I haven't worked with many of them, hence my post.

I can sort out the Nyquist/HD issue myself and likely will get both. I mentioned Mackie because digital mixers seem to be coming forth and of course I'm wondering if they are up to speed yet or if that is still in the future.

I hope that clarifies my question a bit.

Thanks for your time,

Joe



Joe,

If you're doing a full build-out, I can't see why you'd be interested in a low-level digital console. You get all of the disadvantages and few of the advatages.

Personally, I think you'd be better off working ITB using stems through a small sidecar or a Dangerous 2-bus, than buying a digital console.

A good analog console would be great. The two you mentioned are fine consoles. Unfortunately, as George suggested, they DO require maintenance, and you would likely need to spend some time learning about that. Do you want to spend your time learning to be a hack tech in a pinch, or do you want to spend your time recording your friends?

I think that you could probably find a good Neotek or a Trident 80b for the price of a Harley. If this is the way you go, make sure they are in good technical condition. Recapping alone can cost you a bundle of money, so you need to consider what the beast will cost you AFTER you buy it.

It's difficult to give recommendations of this sort of thing on line. We don't know if you need 20 inputs of mic pres. An analog console goes a long way towards that. We don't know if you need automation. That is typically a cost above and beyond the cost of a console. We don't know how big your build-out is, and whether you're trying to put too big a console in the space that you've built. There are many, many considerations to take into account that we're just not privy to.

Personally, I think that if you're going to get Alsihad, you should get a good sidecar console of 8-12 inputs. This will give you the mic pres that you probably need, it will give you a way to stem out your mixes, and it won't take up too much space. You can even have a sidecar custom built for you by several manufacturers. Fred Forsell for instance, who makes a great product, and is a great guy, could probably make you a nice side car. I don't know, but given your descriptions here, this seems to me to be a better plan than a full fledged console like a Trident 80b.

Good luck,

Mixerman
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bblackwood

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Re: Quest for a good board
« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2004, 01:02:24 PM »

Hey, MM, I've probably missed your reply on this elsewhere, but have you found any combo of ITB/outboard summing that you felt rivaled your time on the larger/better sounding analog consoles?
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bbkong

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Re: Quest for a good board
« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2004, 02:21:40 PM »

Mixerman wrote on Fri, 14 May 2004 09:52


Joe,

If you're doing a full build-out, I can't see why you'd be interested in a low-level digital console. You get all of the disadvantages and few of the advatages.


I was just curious about the state of digital consoles.

Quote:


A good analog console would be great.  If this is the way you go, make sure they are in good technical condition. Recapping alone can cost you a bundle of money, so you need to consider what the beast will cost you AFTER you buy it.


Completely understand that. After a $800 tab for recapping a pair of Twins, I'm more than willing to break out a soldering iron and deal with R&Ring some caps on an analog board. I'm not a complete neophyte, actually, just not a wizard.

Quote:


It's difficult to give recommendations of this sort of thing on line. We don't know if you need 20 inputs of mic pres. An analog console goes a long way towards that. We don't know if you need automation. That is typically a cost above and beyond the cost of a console. We don't know how big your build-out is, and whether you're trying to put too big a console in the space that you've built. There are many, many considerations to take into account that we're just not privy to.


I understand, really. I imagine in the size of my space I'd realistically need no more than a dozen or so pres. My mixes will be a combination of ITB and outboard and I'll be leaning on the box for automation, so that's not really a factor in choosing a board. I'm more interested in the quality of the pre's and having an analog mix that'll cover 24 tracks if need arises. I also understand that I can stem drum tracks etc. and get by with fewer outboard channels.

Also, I'm adding another 5 feet to the depth of the control room as you last saw it. I'll need pacing room.

Quote:


Personally, I think that if you're going to get Alsihad, you should get a good sidecar console of 8-12 inputs. This will give you the mic pres that you probably need, it will give you a way to stem out your mixes, and it won't take up too much space. You can even have a sidecar custom built for you by several manufacturers.


Now we're talkin'.

Quote:


I don't know, but given your descriptions here, this seems to me to be a better plan than a full fledged console like a Trident 80b.


Once again, you've made incredibly good sense of my issues.

I'm just at the point in my build that I need to make these decisions before I go any further.

I'd love to meet Fred and discuss this with him further, too.

I'm still waiting for some answers to a few questions I had about Radar before I take that step, but I'm definitely leaning toward it since I've already got a couple of editing programs ITB that should serve my needs well.

Thanks for helping me further refine these decisions. They are the most important and difficult ones for me and the few that I have left to nail down.

You da man. This time I owe you whiskey. hehe

b





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Loco

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Re: Quest for a good board
« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2004, 02:58:27 PM »

bbkong wrote on Fri, 14 May 2004 11:23

I'm just moving some assets into more productive areas.

I thought I was clear about seeking suggestions for a quality analog board in that price range. I trust the advice I've already been given, I just thought I'd beat the bush one more time before I throw down 20 grand.


It's hard to get something more productive than a Harley...  Twisted Evil

You may be able to get a sony DMX-R100 for less than 20K being a very good sounding board, if you must have a board. However, the sidecar alternative may give you more money for some other important outboard gear and/or plugins.
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Family Hoof

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Re: Quest for a good board
« Reply #9 on: May 15, 2004, 01:40:00 PM »

Not that my opinion matters, but I agree with mixerman's ideas. By spending more cash on fewer channels, the quality is going to be a lot higher. If you don't blow the whole 20k on a console, it could be put towards higher quality D/A converters for getting your stems out there. If you're only going to be tracking 12 or 16 tracks at a time, might as well just get that many channels of high end outbaord mic pres/eqs/comps and mix + match for your ideal sound. In building with single components and small sidecars in this manner, you can save space, save money, and have something completely customized for your needs/worlflow.

On an unrelated note, the BET Jazz television series "Live at the Knitting Factory" was mixed on a Trident 80B using splits from the on stage mics which were all of pretty low quality (57s and MXL + Oktava condensers). I assisted on a taping once and got to see the whole operation. Sounded pretty good before broadcast processing killed it. They also had some vintage compressors to work with but the pres, eq, and summing were Trident.
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bbkong

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Re: Quest for a good board
« Reply #10 on: May 15, 2004, 02:35:38 PM »

Au contraire, Mr. Hoof. All opinions are worthy, considerable and appreciated.

I'll spend the weekend looking at sidecars and not the ones with one wheel.
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tptman

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Re: Quest for a good board
« Reply #11 on: May 15, 2004, 06:46:02 PM »

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bbkong

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Re: Quest for a good board
« Reply #12 on: May 15, 2004, 08:44:47 PM »

Pretty, indeed.

They say it's been in storage for 5 years though, and from what I've recently learned about caps it likely needs all or most of them replaced. That's a wild guess.

That kind makes the price a little on the high side, especially considering it's on the east coast. There's about 7-8 of 'em here in CA for sale.

I am tempted though by the spare parts and documentation with it.
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Family Hoof

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Re: Quest for a good board
« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2004, 01:45:55 AM »

Even it has been sitting around, that's Purpleaudio who are selling it. Neighbors of John Klett and very reputable. I believe he knows a thing or two about those boards. Might want to check the old forum. Although, I do remember reading a post about the A range that said the cost of getting and keeping them fully operable for a fulltime facility can be huge. Daking makes new stuff that's supposed to be based on Trident for about ten times the price of that one  Very Happy (if I'm not mistaken)

[EDIT] It is a funny coincidence you noticed, bbkong, with the two varieties of sidecar. I wonder if "driving" the audio signal had anything to do with the birth of that term? Or maybe the engineer who coined it just liked motorcycles too...
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dwoz

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Re: Quest for a good board
« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2004, 02:11:22 PM »



bb...just bear in mind, you have several issues to address.



monitoring input.



routing effects.



summing to 2mix.


marquis.



I still think a board is the best swiss-army knife/leatherman for all the jobs, although individual solutions to each problem may be more elegant in-and-of themselves...

just my $0.02

dwoz
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bbkong

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Re: Quest for a good board
« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2004, 02:47:19 PM »

dwoz wrote on Sun, 16 May 2004 11:11



bb...just bear in mind, you have several issues to address.



monitoring input.



routing effects.



summing to 2mix.


marquis.


dwoz



Marquis? Are we gonna box about this?

Kidding.


Actually, I've moved this topic over here-
http://marsh.prosoundweb.com/index.php/t/583/?SQ=d9d1783af49 f8a186bdff3a51e00a44d

in the shade.

These are things that I'm keeping in mind as I start choosing and picking stuff. Undoubtably, there will be a significant patchbay that I think Alex will be specin' out.

Also, now that I'm falling into the Radar pit, I have a suspicion Zerman's gonna be over here trying to stick a D2B up my butt.


hehehe.



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Bill Mueller

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Re: Quest for a good board
« Reply #16 on: May 16, 2004, 09:25:16 PM »

I've use both the Neotek and the Trident. The Trident is very punchy, has that gritty british eq that'll just take your head off and punches better than most boards. Great for Rock. The Neotek has a sweet high end with the smoothest eq. Very high fidelity. No punch. Great for classical and jazz.

Be careful regarding Neotek consoles and their control pots. They had to replace over 100,000 pots because of a bad run once. Nearly killed the company if I recall. Don't want to get a bad one.

I prefer the Yamaha DM2000 for a zillion reasons. GM does not want too much promotional speech so I won't go any further. Just check it out before you jump.

Best regards,

Bill
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drumsound

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Re: Quest for a good board
« Reply #17 on: May 20, 2004, 02:51:42 AM »

Here's a cool used/refurbed Neotek being sold by Sytek/Neotek

Elite II

I have to disagree that Neoteks don't rock.  I think they rock quite nicely.  I love my Elan II to death.  There are a ton of them in Chicago.  A lot of the "cool/influential Chicago early 90s buzz music" was done on Neotek consoles.  
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