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[mgod]

http://www.anunreasonableman.com/

I hope everyone in the US and A got to see the documentary on PBS tonight. An incredible portrait of the state of our political system. It vividly illustrated how both "sides" are more about their relationship to each other and power, and very much against the rest of us.

Links for reruns:
http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/unreasonableman/
 http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/unreasonableman/film.html

DS

[Ashermusic]

mgod wrote on Wed, 19 December 2007 07:10

http://www.anunreasonableman.com/ I hope everyone in the US and A got to see the documentary on PBS tonight. An incredible portrait of the state of our political system. It vividly illustrated how both "sides" are more about their relationship to each other and power, and very much against the rest of us. Links for reruns: http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/unreasonableman/   http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/unreasonableman/film.html DS

Sorry I missed this.

That said, I think Nader has become a narcissist who thinks he and only he can save us. It is simply undeniable that had he dropped out of a presidential race that he had no chance of winning we would have had a President Gore, who certainly would have been better than Bush for the environment and many other causes that he and many  of us care about.

For a hungry man, part of a loaf of bread is better than no loaf and because of Nader's  unwillingness to compromise instead of a partial loaf we a loafer.

[Jay Kadis]

You can snipe at the messenger all you like, the message stands.  Compromising with the corrupt power structure will do nothing to rectify the situation.  We need a clean start and the Green Party is it for me.  You can lament how Bush ascended to the throne due to Nader but the reality is that his running did not create the situation, ignorant short-sighted self-centered voters did that.

[mgod]

Ashermusic wrote on Wed, 19 December 2007 08:13

That said, I think Nader has become a narcissist who thinks he and only he can save us. It is simply undeniable that had he dropped out of a presidential race that he had no chance of winning we would have had a President Gore, who certainly would have been better than Bush for the environment and many other causes that he and many  of us care about.

Then you need to see this movie, and see how it all really played out.

BTW, I didn't vote for him in 2000. I wanted to, but I voted, with regret, for Gore. Seeing this, I'm sorry about it (I did vote for him 1996).

DS

[Ashermusic]

mgod wrote on Wed, 19 December 2007 18:15

Ashermusic wrote on Wed, 19 December 2007 08:13 That said, I think Nader has become a narcissist who thinks he and only he can save us. It is simply undeniable that had he dropped out of a presidential race that he had no chance of winning we would have had a President Gore, who certainly would have been better than Bush for the environment and many other causes that he and many  of us care about. Then you need to see this movie, and see how it all really played out. BTW, I didn't vote for him in 2000. I wanted to, but I voted, with regret, for Gore. Seeing this, I'm sorry about it (I did vote for him 1996). DS

I will try to see it, right after you  read "The Looming Tower."

Seriously, you and Jay Kadis can please correct me if I am wrong but apart from his stands on the environment  and  corporate culture which I  am sympathetic to, it is my  impression that Nader's foreign policy ideas  are roughly equivalent to Kucininch, no?

I could never vote for anyone whose world view was like that.

[mgod]

Its not a question of whether or not you vote for him - the reason to see the movie is to see in detail the way in which a credible 3rd party candidate was excluded, and the machinations the 2 parties went through to keep him out and quiet.

Its a vivid illustration that we no longer have an open poliical system, we have privatized politics. See it.

DS

[Jay Kadis]

Since the corporate take-over of government has had disasterous consquences for the average citizen, the excision of corporate money and influence from government is for me the overarching goal.  Only Nader seems to share that goal.  Our foreign policies have never been honest or straightforward and I hardly expect that to change until the corporate influence is diminished.

[mgod]

Its not just corporate influence or dominance, its that the 2 parties have taken over the campaign process and run it as a private business, excluding all others. The debates are sponsored and produced for television by them, not the League of Women Voters or any public interest group.

DS

[Ashermusic]

mgod wrote on Fri, 21 December 2007 15:25

Its not a question of whether or not you vote for him - the reason to see the movie is to see in detail the way in which a credible 3rd party candidate was excluded, and the machinations the 2 parties went through to keep him out and quiet. Its a vivid illustration that we no longer have an open poliical system, we have privatized politics. See it. DS

Well this is not new. We  have never had a successful 3rd party  candidate. Even ex-president Teddy Roosevelt failed when he ran as the Bullmoose party candidate.

McCain-Feingold, which was well intentioned, has totally backfired as the end result is that by and large only a rich man can really mount an effective campaign.

Anyone here have thoughts on campaign finance reform that would actually  work? We certainly need it.

[mgod]

Public financing.

No, its not new, but its extraordinary to see a public figure like Ralph Nader, someone who can command attention, not simply being ignored but being gamed. He did everything legally to enter the debates, so they kept changing the rules, and eventually had police officers forcing him out of debates halls that he had every legal right to enter.

DS

[Ashermusic]

mgod wrote on Fri, 21 December 2007 17:01

Public financing. No, its not new, but its extraordinary to see a public figure like Ralph Nader, someone who can command attention, not simply being ignored but being gamed. He did everything legally to enter the debates, so they kept changing the rules, and eventually had police officers forcing him out of debates halls that the had every legal right to enter. DS

How would the public financing work? Break it down for me, please.

[mgod]

Oh, you do it. I'm going back to bed.

http://www.publicampaign.org/

DS

[PRobb]

Running for president was totally egotistical. It's not the way you start a third party. Wouldn't it have been better to take those resources and actually elect some local officials? Wouldn't it be great if there four or five Congressmen from The Green Party?

P.S.- I also voted for Nader in 1996 because I live in New York, which is a safe Democratic state.

[mgod]

PRobb wrote on Fri, 21 December 2007 11:58

Running for president was totally egotistical. It's not the way you start a third party. Wouldn't it have been better to take those resources and actually elect some local officials? Wouldn't it be great if there four or five Congressmen from The Green Party?

Sure, that would be great, but Nader's a national figure with a long history of public service at no profit. His run had nothing to do with ego, just the inevitable result of his lifelong almost purely non-partisan work colliding with the increasing privatization and deterioration of the public commons.

PRobb wrote on Fri, 21 December 2007 11:58

P.S.- I also voted for Nader in 1996 because I live in New York, which is a safe Democratic state.

I voted for him because I voted my conscience.

I didn't in 2000 because of what happened to McCain in South Carolina (I voted for McCain in the CA primary that year). I knew  by November that nothing was beyond Bushco Inc. As we have seen.

DS

[PRobb]

mgod wrote on Fri, 21 December 2007 15:08

PRobb wrote on Fri, 21 December 2007 11:58 Running for president was totally egotistical. It's not the way you start a third party. Wouldn't it have been better to take those resources and actually elect some local officials? Wouldn't it be great if there four or five Congressmen from The Green Party? Sure, that would be great, but Nader's a national figure with a long history of public service at no profit. His run had nothing to do with ego, just the inevitable result of his lifelong almost purely non-partisan work colliding with the increasing privatization and deterioration of the public commons.

You can tilt heroically at windmills, or you could do something that could actually have an effect.