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Author Topic: The irony of meat-eating Animal rights activists  (Read 23505 times)

Jay Kadis

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Re: The irony of meat-eating Animal rights activists
« Reply #45 on: December 15, 2007, 11:16:03 AM »

John Ivan wrote on Sat, 15 December 2007 02:43


Let's eat..

Ivan..........................
Somehow I'm not hungry anymore.

mgod

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Re: The irony of meat-eating Animal rights activists
« Reply #46 on: December 15, 2007, 11:20:13 AM »

Ahhh...people eat too much anyway. Calorie restriction is the way of the future: economically, health-wise and out of sheer (lack of) availability.

DS

The end of cheap food

Dec 6th 2007
From The Economist print edition

Rising food prices are a threat to many; they also present the world with an enormous opportunity


FOR as long as most people can remember, food has been getting cheaper and farming has been in decline. In 1974-2005 food prices on world markets fell by three-quarters in real terms. Food today is so cheap that the West is battling gluttony even as it scrapes piles of half-eaten leftovers into the bin.

That is why this year's price rise has been so extraordinary. Since the spring, wheat prices have doubled and almost every crop under the sun—maize, milk, oilseeds, you name it—is at or near a peak in nominal terms. The Economist's food-price index is higher today than at any time since it was created in 1845 (see chart). Even in real terms, prices have jumped by 75% since 2005. No doubt farmers will meet higher prices with investment and more production, but dearer food is likely to persist for years (see article). That is because “agflation” is underpinned by long-running changes in diet that accompany the growing wealth of emerging economies—the Chinese consumer who ate 20kg (44lb) of meat in 1985 will scoff over 50kg of the stuff this year. That in turn pushes up demand for grain: it takes 8kg of grain to produce one of beef.

But the rise in prices is also the self-inflicted result of America's reckless ethanol subsidies. This year biofuels will take a third of America's (record) maize harvest. That affects food markets directly: fill up an SUV's fuel tank with ethanol and you have used enough maize to feed a person for a year. And it affects them indirectly, as farmers switch to maize from other crops. The 30m tonnes of extra maize going to ethanol this year amounts to half the fall in the world's overall grain stocks.

Dearer food has the capacity to do enormous good and enormous harm. It will hurt urban consumers, especially in poor countries, by increasing the price of what is already the most expensive item in their household budgets. It will benefit farmers and agricultural communities by increasing the rewards of their labour; in many poor rural places it will boost the most important source of jobs and economic growth.

Although the cost of food is determined by fundamental patterns of demand and supply, the balance between good and ill also depends in part on governments. If politicians do nothing, or the wrong things, the world faces more misery, especially among the urban poor. If they get policy right, they can help increase the wealth of the poorest nations, aid the rural poor, rescue farming from subsidies and neglect—and minimise the harm to the slum-dwellers and landless labourers. So far, the auguries look gloomy.
In the trough

That, at least, is the lesson of half a century of food policy. Whatever the supposed threat—the lack of food security, rural poverty, environmental stewardship—the world seems to have only one solution: government intervention. Most of the subsidies and trade barriers have come at a huge cost. The trillions of dollars spent supporting farmers in rich countries have led to higher taxes, worse food, intensively farmed monocultures, overproduction and world prices that wreck the lives of poor farmers in the emerging markets. And for what? Despite the help, plenty of Western farmers have been beset by poverty. Increasing productivity means you need fewer farmers, which steadily drives the least efficient off the land. Even a vast subsidy cannot reverse that.

With agflation, policy has reached a new level of self-parody. Take America's supposedly verdant ethanol subsidies. It is not just that they are supporting a relatively dirty version of ethanol (far better to import Brazil's sugar-based liquor); they are also offsetting older grain subsidies that lowered prices by encouraging overproduction. Intervention multiplies like lies. Now countries such as Russia and Venezuela have imposed price controls—an aid to consumers—to offset America's aid to ethanol producers. Meanwhile, high grain prices are persuading people to clear forests to plant more maize.

Dearer food is a chance to break this dizzying cycle. Higher market prices make it possible to reduce subsidies without hurting incomes. A farm bill is now going through America's Congress. The European Union has promised a root-and-branch review (not yet reform) of its farm-support scheme. The reforms of the past few decades have, in fact, grappled with the rich world's farm programmes—but only timidly. Now comes the chance for politicians to show that they are serious when they say they want to put agriculture right.

Cutting rich-world subsidies and trade barriers would help taxpayers; it could revive the stalled Doha round of world trade talks, boosting the world economy; and, most important, it would directly help many of the world's poor. In terms of economic policy, it is hard to think of a greater good.
Where government help is really needed

Three-quarters of the world's poor live in rural areas. The depressed world prices created by farm policies over the past few decades have had a devastating effect. There has been a long-term fall in investment in farming and the things that sustain it, such as irrigation. The share of public spending going to agriculture in developing countries has fallen by half since 1980. Poor countries that used to export food now import it.

Reducing subsidies in the West would help reverse this. The World Bank reckons that if you free up agricultural trade, the prices of things poor countries specialise in (like cotton) would rise and developing countries would capture the gains by increasing exports. And because farming accounts for two-thirds of jobs in the poorest countries, it is the most important contributor to the early stages of economic growth. According to the World Bank, the really poor get three times as much extra income from an increase in farm productivity as from the same gain in industry or services. In the long term, thriving farms and open markets provide a secure food supply.

However, there is an obvious catch—and one that justifies government help. High prices have a mixed impact on poverty: they hurt anyone who loses more from dear food than he gains from a higher income. And that means over a billion urban consumers (and some landless labourers), many of whom are politically influential in poor countries. Given the speed of this year's food-price rises, governments in emerging markets have no alternative but to try to soften the blow.

Where they can, these governments should subsidise the incomes of the poor, rather than food itself, because that minimises price distortions. Where food subsidies are unavoidable, they should be temporary and targeted on the poor. So far, most government interventions in the poor world have failed these tests: politicians who seem to think cheap food part of the natural order of things have slapped on price controls and export restraints, which hurt farmers and will almost certainly fail.

Over the past few years, a sense has grown that the rich are hogging the world's wealth. In poor countries, widening income inequality takes the form of a gap between city and country: incomes have been rising faster for urban dwellers than for rural ones. If handled properly, dearer food is a once-in-a-generation chance to narrow income disparities and to wean rich farmers from subsidies and help poor ones. The ultimate reward, though, is not merely theirs: it is to make the world richer and fairer.
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Andy Peters

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Re: The irony of meat-eating Animal rights activists
« Reply #47 on: December 15, 2007, 04:58:37 PM »

J.J. Blair wrote on Thu, 13 December 2007 23:26

When does life begin?  In the words of the prophet, Bill Hicks, "Life begins when you are in the phone book."


The classic line is that a Jewish child is viable when he graduates from law school.

-a (Jew, natch)
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mgod

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Re: The irony of meat-eating Animal rights activists
« Reply #48 on: December 15, 2007, 08:07:55 PM »

Oh, somewhere my  mother is laughing.

DS
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PookyNMR

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Re: The irony of meat-eating Animal rights activists
« Reply #49 on: December 15, 2007, 11:02:12 PM »

I'm a member of PETA.  People for the Eating of Tasty Animals.

Rib eye steak, rare, with a Bordeaux, s'il vous plait.
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Nathan Rousu

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Re: The irony of meat-eating Animal rights activists
« Reply #50 on: December 15, 2007, 11:15:36 PM »

PookyNMR wrote on Sat, 15 December 2007 23:02

I'm a member of PETA.  People for the Eating of Tasty Animals.

Rib eye steak, rare, with a Bordeaux, s'il vous plait.


Lets face it, if we weren't meant to eat animals then why did (non-existent) God make them so tasty?
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conquer

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Re: The irony of meat-eating Animal rights activists
« Reply #51 on: December 15, 2007, 11:20:16 PM »

The animals also find us "tasty". Lets eat them first!  Rolling Eyes
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PookyNMR

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Re: The irony of meat-eating Animal rights activists
« Reply #52 on: December 16, 2007, 12:40:07 AM »

JS wrote on Sat, 15 December 2007 21:15

PookyNMR wrote on Sat, 15 December 2007 23:02

I'm a member of PETA.  People for the Eating of Tasty Animals.

Rib eye steak, rare, with a Bordeaux, s'il vous plait.


Lets face it, if we weren't meant to eat animals then why did (non-existent) God make them so tasty?


And why did he give us BBQs, warm summer days and cold beer??  I mean really, come on people - could it be any more obvious??
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Nathan Rousu

danickstr

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Re: The irony of meat-eating Animal rights activists
« Reply #53 on: December 16, 2007, 08:47:42 AM »

Meat is a hard tradition to abandon, and leaving god's genius aside, my real problem with meat is the treatment of animals in the slaughterhouses and stockyards.

there are grotesque atrocities that lead to the tasty burger and bacon sandwich, that any person with even the least amount of compassion would find abhorring.  

I almost throw up the first time I saw a chicken cage secret film.  

These fiends need to be policed, if the carnivores are to continue their flesh lust.

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Jay Kadis

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Re: The irony of meat-eating Animal rights activists
« Reply #54 on: December 16, 2007, 11:36:58 AM »

PookyNMR wrote on Sat, 15 December 2007 21:40

And why did he give us BBQs, warm summer days and cold beer??  I mean really, come on people - could it be any more obvious??

He also gave us hypertension, atherosclerosis, and myocardial infarction.  Some joker.

mgod

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Re: The irony of meat-eating Animal rights activists
« Reply #55 on: December 16, 2007, 12:25:32 PM »

danickstr wrote on Sun, 16 December 2007 05:47

Meat is a hard tradition to abandon, and leaving god's genius aside, my real problem with meat is the treatment of animals in the slaughterhouses and stockyards.

there are grotesque atrocities that lead to the tasty burger and bacon sandwich, that any person with even the least amount of compassion would find abhorring.  

I almost throw up the first time I saw a chicken cage secret film.  

These fiends need to be policed, if the carnivores are to continue their flesh lust.

That's exactly the issue for me. We tend to not support businesses whose practices we dislike (except for all Digi users), and this one is just beyond the pale. The British documentary "The Animals Film" is a behind the scenes look at where meat comes from.

We ignore the potential of global warming out of convenience and it may cost us our "civilization". We ignore the atrocity of the meat industry for similar reasons, and it costs us our souls. Not much to lose apparently. And on a positive note, keeping us primed for brutality will have us ready to devour each other when meat can longer get to our local marketplace. I'm told that the palm is the tenderest, tastiest part of humans.

I didn't find meat a hard tradition to abandon, despite being raised by spectacular Hungarian cooks who considered vegetarianism an aberration. All I had to do was really look at what I was about to eat and see how much like me it was.

DS
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Ashermusic

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Re: The irony of meat-eating Animal rights activists
« Reply #56 on: December 16, 2007, 12:50:55 PM »

mgod wrote on Sun, 16 December 2007 17:25

danickstr wrote on Sun, 16 December 2007 05:47

Meat is a hard tradition to abandon, and leaving god's genius aside, my real problem with meat is the treatment of animals in the slaughterhouses and stockyards.

there are grotesque atrocities that lead to the tasty burger and bacon sandwich, that any person with even the least amount of compassion would find abhorring.  

I almost throw up the first time I saw a chicken cage secret film.  

These fiends need to be policed, if the carnivores are to continue their flesh lust.

That's exactly the issue for me. We tend to not support businesses whose practices we dislike (except for all Digi users), and this one is just beyond the pale. The British documentary "The Animals Film" is a behind the scenes look at where meat comes from.

We ignore the potential of global warming out of convenience and it may cost us our "civilization". We ignore the atrocity of the meat industry for similar reasons, and it costs us our souls. Not much to lose apparently. And on a positive note, keeping us primed for brutality will have us ready to devour each other when meat can longer get to our local marketplace. I'm told that the palm is the tenderest, tastiest part of humans.

I didn't find meat a hard tradition to abandon, despite being raised by spectacular Hungarian cooks who considered vegetarianism an aberration. All I had to do was really look at what I was about to eat and see how much like me it was.

DS


So Daniel, when we get together next week at Amir's and I  order a shawerma is this going to be a problem for you?
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mgod

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Re: The irony of meat-eating Animal rights activists
« Reply #57 on: December 16, 2007, 08:40:39 PM »

No, no - I'm long used to being among the carnivorous. My daughter is vegetarian, my wife is an omnivore. I even cooked chicken which I de-boned by hand for my daughter until she declared herself appalled by the idea of eating creatures she loved.

But thank you for asking. Bear in mind the falafel there is the best. The shwarama might be, I'll never know.

(All invited, btw. Politeness is the rule   - no piling on Mr. Asher.)

DS
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danickstr

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Re: The irony of meat-eating Animal rights activists
« Reply #58 on: December 16, 2007, 09:03:05 PM »

what do the bloody limeys mean by the word dear Confused
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Nick Dellos - MCPE  

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maxim

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Re: The irony of meat-eating Animal rights activists
« Reply #59 on: December 16, 2007, 10:08:51 PM »

my son declared himself vegetarian when he was 7 (in a family of carnivores)

still going at 10...
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