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Author Topic: The irony of meat-eating Animal rights activists  (Read 14371 times)

rphilbeck

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Re: The irony of meat-eating Animal rights activists
« Reply #30 on: December 13, 2007, 04:51:07 pm »

I'm still curious to know how one is okay with killing an unborn child, but they are not okay with executing a convicted murderer?  Is it strictly due to the risk that the convicted may be later found to be innocent?

I just can't fathom defending John Wayne Gacy, or Timothy McVeigh's life, but when it comes to an unborn child you throw them out like a piece of garbage.  

The death penalty is more expensive than keeping a person incarcerated for 4 or 5 lifetimes.  It has also never been proven to deter criminal activity.  If our prisons were less like vacation resorts, the public would be more inclined to let them rot and break rocks all day.
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Tidewater

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Re: The irony of meat-eating Animal rights activists
« Reply #31 on: December 13, 2007, 05:04:47 pm »

The irony of meat: Eating animal rights activists.

mMmmm...

iles
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CCC

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Re: The irony of meat-eating Animal rights activists
« Reply #32 on: December 13, 2007, 05:56:22 pm »

RPhilbeck wrote on Thu, 13 December 2007 16:51

I'm still curious to know how one is okay with killing an unborn child, but they are not okay with executing a convicted murderer?  Is it strictly due to the risk that the convicted may be later found to be innocent?

I just can't fathom defending John Wayne Gacy, or Timothy McVeigh's life, but when it comes to an unborn child you throw them out like a piece of garbage.  

The death penalty is more expensive than keeping a person incarcerated for 4 or 5 lifetimes.  It has also never been proven to deter criminal activity.  If our prisons were less like vacation resorts, the public would be more inclined to let them rot and break rocks all day.


An answer was proposed.  To rephrase that answer: the statement that "killing an unborn child" is a value-loaded statement that dictates only one acceptable conclusion.  Some people do not begin considering this matter with the presupposition that terminating pregnancy is the killing of a child...other people say the termination of pregnancy is "killing a child" or "murder."  The difference is fundamental and is rooted in how you conceive (pun intended) of the embryo/fetus/unborn-baby-created-in-Gods-own-image creature.

If you describe the termination of pregnancy as "killing" then it would naturally seem weird that some people are pro-choice and anti-death penalty.  If you do not consider the termination of pregnancy as "killing a child" and you are anti-death penalty then you do not have contradictory views.

Your earlier argument, which seems to be a "hedge" in case God exists (despite the dearth of evidence of that), presupposes that God cares.  Maybe God (who may exist, despite the dearth of evidence) is not the Christian-right-wing queer hating anti-abortion God of legend.  The nature of God and his/her/its views are not ascertained.  Unless you believe in literal interpretations of religious writings, which is your prerogative, as completely discredited as that is.

Death penalty: well, the risk of killing the wrongfully convicted is a problem.  Unlike an embryo, for which the ascertainment of its "personhood" is difficult and rests in large part on religious views, we can all pretty much agree that a bona fide living independent human is a bona fide living independent human.  Deliberately planning to kill and killing a bona fide living person for no reason is a problem.

Maybe we should reserve the death penalty for only those people for whom guilt is an absolute certainty, rather than for whom guilt is (supposedly) beyond a reasonable doubt.  But then again, what is absolute certainty that somebody has planned, premeditated and executed a first degree murder?  A video tape of them doing the killing, with a narration of exactly what their subjective intention was?  A confession?  (problematic - coercion, death wish, etc.)

I don't know much about the kinds of high security prisons that murderers serve time in.  The description "vacation resort" is interesting.  I've never seen such a place, so I must reserve comment.  I would, however, be interested to hear more about how maximum security prisons are great places to live since this doesn't fit with my limited knowledge of those institutions.
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Jay Kadis

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Re: The irony of meat-eating Animal rights activists
« Reply #33 on: December 13, 2007, 07:01:15 pm »

RPhilbeck wrote on Thu, 13 December 2007 13:51

I'm still curious to know how one is okay with killing an unborn child, but they are not okay with executing a convicted murderer?  Is it strictly due to the risk that the convicted may be later found to be innocent?


Because it isn't killing an unborn child, it's removing a piece of tissue.  In the early stages of gestation you are hard-pressed to tell a human embryo from a pig embryo and I know that by observation.  After a certain point it's less clear this holds and it gets into questionable territory late in gestation.  It's not black and white as you seem to want to make it.

And I wonder if you'd feel the same if you were a woman who was made pregnant without her consent.  

RPhilbeck wrote on Thu, 13 December 2007 13:51

I just can't fathom defending John Wayne Gacy, or Timothy McVeigh's life, but when it comes to an unborn child you throw them out like a piece of garbage.

We don't have to defend their lives not to want to kill them.  Two wrongs...you know.

Would you personally volunteer to execute them?


maxim

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Re: The irony of meat-eating Animal rights activists
« Reply #34 on: December 13, 2007, 11:03:20 pm »

"...who read the bible as a treatise on justifiable homicide"

some might argue that's exactly what it is... (after all, it was moses who delivered god's plague to ALL THE FIRSTBORN CHILDREN of egypt)

the end justifies the means?
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danickstr

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Re: The irony of meat-eating Animal rights activists
« Reply #35 on: December 14, 2007, 12:03:35 am »

Tidewater wrote on Thu, 13 December 2007 17:04

The irony of meat: Eating animal rights activists.

mMmmm...

iles



LOL
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mgod

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Re: The irony of meat-eating Animal rights activists
« Reply #36 on: December 14, 2007, 12:19:24 am »

Tidewater wrote on Thu, 13 December 2007 14:04

The irony of meat: Eating animal rights activists.

mMmmm...

iles

Well, the "man" is consistent at least.

How about this? People who eat meat can be meat. I'll eat anyone who thinks it ok to eat their fellow creatures. Its a carnivore eat carnivore world - leave the rest of us out of it.

That should suit "Miles"' idea of the world. If the Nuge ever opend his meat only restaurant I'd happily dine there if he served me a piece of his own arm or leg.

DS
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mgod

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Re: The irony of meat-eating Animal rights activists
« Reply #37 on: December 14, 2007, 12:23:55 am »

JS wrote on Thu, 13 December 2007 14:56

Your earlier argument, which seems to be a "hedge" in case God exists (despite the dearth of evidence of that), presupposes that God cares.  Maybe God (who may exist, despite the dearth of evidence) is not the Christian-right-wing queer hating anti-abortion God of legend.  The nature of God and his/her/its views are not ascertained.  Unless you believe in literal interpretations of religious writings, which is your prerogative, as completely discredited as that is.

In this context it also pre-supposes that God, whatever "HE" is, disapproves of "killing" the yet-to-be-formed mass of cells in utero but approves of killing his other creatures for food.

DS
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maxim

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Re: The irony of meat-eating Animal rights activists
« Reply #38 on: December 14, 2007, 01:14:05 am »

"I'd happily dine there if he served me a piece of his own arm or leg."

i'd want it served with a penicillin injection on the side...
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J.J. Blair

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Re: The irony of meat-eating Animal rights activists
« Reply #39 on: December 14, 2007, 01:26:13 am »

When does life begin?  In the words of the prophet, Bill Hicks, "Life begins when you are in the phone book."

And sorry, I don't view ending a pregnancy in the first two trimesters as murder.
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Fox

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Re: The irony of meat-eating Animal rights activists
« Reply #40 on: December 14, 2007, 10:36:51 am »

I won't comment too much on abortion because it's a complex thing and it's too easy to judge without knowing. I view it as morally ambiguous, but I think of most things as morally ambiguous, really. I don't think I'd want my girlfriend to do it, but I'm not about to stop someone I don't know from doing it either. I don't think "morality" should be imposed on people, rather it should be a personal choice.

I find it difficult to either support or condemn the death penalty at times. Here's an example.

http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/predators/bittake r_norris/1.html

If you don't have the time to read this, I'll sum it up quickly. Two men raped, tortured and killed numerous young women, most between the ages of 13 and 19. They made audio tapes of some of it. They were convicted and one of them was sentenced to death in 1981. He's still on death row right now. There is absolutely NO DOUBT that these men tortured and murdered those women. It's on tape. Here's something of interest, quoted from the above article:

Quote:

Death penalty sentences are neither sure nor swift. Appeal of a death sentence is automatic, regardless of the defendant’s wishes. Two years elapsed before the California Supreme Court appointed Bittaker’s appellate attorney, six more before the same court affirmed Bittaker’s death sentence on June 28, 1989. Bittaker was absent on October 4, 1989, when Torrance judge John Shook set his execution  for December 29, but he had little to fear. His attorney filed yet another appeal that automatically stayed the execution. On June 11, 1990, the California Supreme Court declined to hear the case again.

Later that same year, while actor Scott Glenn was preparing for his role as an FBI profiler in The Silence of the Lambs, he visited the Bureau’s Behavioral Science Unit at Quantico, Virginia. Legendary profiler John Douglas gave Glenn a tour of the facility. Glenn listened to the Bittaker/Norris tapes and he left Douglas’ office in tears. He told reporters that he entered the office as a death penalty opponent. He left staunchly in favor of capital punishment.

When Bittaker was not busy drafting appeals, he amused himself by filing frivolous suits against the state prison system. There were more than 40 in all by October 1995. In one case, where he claimed he had been subjected to “cruel and unusual punishment” by receipt of a broken cookie on his lunch tray, state officials paid $5,000 to have the suit dismissed. Before the state was granted summary judgment, they had to prove that Bittaker could skip his lunch and still survive by only eating breakfast and dinner.

It was all great fun and cost Bittaker nothing, since California prisoners are permitted to file their suits for free. When not pursuing nuisance litigation, Bittaker enjoyed a daily game of bridge with fellow inmates Randy Kraft, Douglas Clark and William Bonin, themselves convicted serial killers with an estimated 94 victims among them. The game was left short-handed in February 1996, after Bonin was executed, but Bittaker has other diversions. In the late 1990s, a catalogue of prison memorabilia offered his fingernail clippings for sale to  murder groupies. And there is fan mail -- enough to keep him busy between card games.

Bittaker often signs his letters with a nickname.

“Pliers.”


I would kill that man personally, no doubt about it, if it were my daughter, my sister or my girlfriend, etc. whom he destroyed. I'd kill him a thousand times if I could. Sometimes people should be killed. Most often not, but sometimes, yeah. I don't see violence as right or wrong so much as I see it as complex. Good can come of violence, as well as bad. It is a part of all of us, and there must be a reason for it. It's a necessary part of us, unfortunately, and we are what we are. We aren't good, we aren't bad, we just are.

As for vegetarianism, meat and leather, well, what can you do. I'm a meat eater. I love it. The difference between myself and many meat eaters is that I'm very aware of the fact that I'm eating something that used to be alive. I have no problem killing my own food personally. Actually, I would encourage killing your own food instead of picking up steaks at the supermarket if you are a meat lover. You have to actually watch something die, and ask yourself if you're okay with what you've done. I'm okay with it because I won't kill cruelly or for no reason. I show the prey some respect. I try not waste any of the rabbits I've killed, so that they've served a purpose in death.

I wear lot's of leather. Not because of fashion or anything like that, but because I do eat beef quite often. Being that I can't really go cow-hunting, it's my way of showing respect to that animal. I have a few leather coats, I wear leather construction boots all year round, on special occasions leather dress shoes. All of my belts are leather and in the winter I wear leather gloves. Does that make me a bad person? I don't think so. i don't eat veal partly because I don't think I could kill a baby cow, and partly because I just plain don't like the taste. If I liked it enough, I might be willing to kill the calf. Who knows?

There is a difference between being cruel to an animal and killing an animal in my opinion. I have a few dogs and I treat them well. I couldn't hurt them. BTW I don't really draw a distinction between animals for the most part. I'm the only guy I know who isn't disgusted by the thought of people eating dogs. I just wouldn't do it because I love dogs.

Wow this is a long post. Sorry about that. I guess to sum it up, there is a difference between killing and torture, and violence is what you make it. To each his own, as always.
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mgod

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Re: The irony of meat-eating Animal rights activists
« Reply #41 on: December 14, 2007, 10:50:17 am »

I have no problem with someone killing their own food. But buying meat at a store supports an insane business.  View the British production "The Animals Film" and then keep buying flesh.

FWIW, as far as I know I still like meat. When my neighbors are grilling I usually like the smell. But I haven't eaten it for 25 years. A little discipline goes a long way. We don't really have to have everything we want. Some things we can live without.

DS
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Fox

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Re: The irony of meat-eating Animal rights activists
« Reply #42 on: December 14, 2007, 11:18:04 am »

Well, like I said, to each his own.
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maxim

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Re: The irony of meat-eating Animal rights activists
« Reply #43 on: December 14, 2007, 07:02:37 pm »

"Does that make me a bad person? I don't think so."

it's the only opinion that matters...
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John Ivan

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Re: The irony of meat-eating Animal rights activists
« Reply #44 on: December 15, 2007, 05:43:15 am »

Well, I think we should take to eating more people and certain dogs.. As for fish, I like fish.. I mean, I think they're pretty in the water when I swim.. Cows are ugly and taste good..A lot like people..

So, having gone through many many profound changes in my life over the last 8 years, I say kill and eat what ever sounds good at any given moment..

Like last week.. Bass players were sounding really good around lunch time..

I'm nice to our dog.. But she's nice to me.. She's very small, so I wont eat her..

My ten year old Boy?? I don't know yet.. I might eat him, but only if he becomes a Republican, or a Democrat..

Eating stuff is good.. No one seems to care about the killing part, so I don't see what all the fuss is about..

Let's eat..

Ivan..........................
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