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Author Topic: OK, defend this.  (Read 8674 times)

malice

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Re: OK, defend this.
« Reply #90 on: December 04, 2007, 02:46:35 pm »

Ashermusic wrote on Tue, 04 December 2007 20:33




Because asher and I had a disagreement over the subject. Y

malice
radiating love in the room
[/quote]

BTW, Isabella, I don't like your politics but I LOVE your music. You are very talented.

Jay

www.jayasher.com
[/quote]

I was writing a pm to you while you were writing this.

Isabelle is my wife, although we're doing music together.

I'll pass the compliment to her, she likes that a lot (hehe).

As I was explaining in my pm, we disagree, but I respect you for the intelectual honesty you show.

Peace

malice

mgod

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Re: OK, defend this.
« Reply #91 on: December 04, 2007, 04:54:35 pm »

Ashermusic wrote on Tue, 04 December 2007 10:13


2. While there were some good reasons for going into Iraq they were not the ones that the Bush administration used as justification and the  war has been ineptly prosecuted and as a result there have been needless deaths. Nonetheless it  is not morally equivalent to the targeting of  innocents, including  fellow Muslims, by Al Qaeda, Hamas, and Hezbollah.

OK - this is good - so lets parse this. What are the good reasons for going into Iraq? I don't see them, so you tell me.

Further, you're suggesting that targeting innocents vs. simply killing them by being sloppy are morally different. OK - I can see how someone can come up with that but I think its placing oneself firmly on the steps to moral justification for nearly anything. Can you see how its easy to make such an interpretation of moral difference when that determination serves oneself? It appears to me that this is how you're making your decision - and putting yourself on the opposite side, given that decision making basis, you'd come to the opposite conclusion. This the classic slippery moral slope - if its justifiable in one direction, its justifiable in the other. Since no Iraqis attacked us, to find an Iraqi plane dropping bombs on NYC is now morally equivalent and acceptable.

Its simply hard for me to see how your argument of moral difference isn't based on what works for us. Our military finds "collateral damage" an acceptable price for others to pay for our strategic advantage. That military strategists and politicians make this argument doesn't in any way make it justifiable, workable or moral. Its just easy. Saying it doesn't make it right, or moral in any way. Its morally bankrupt, as much as western-defined "terrorism" is.

Ashermusic wrote on Tue, 04 December 2007 10:13


Finally, I  am not angry with anyone here nor was I personally offended by anything anyone wrote and if I offended anyone I am sorry. I come from a Jewish-American background where these kind of discussions/disagreements are common practice among those who love and respect each other.


As do I - this is dinner table conversation. But isn't Jewish tradition the same - that the religious law and the legal systems are supposed to be one?

And Muhammed was pretty clear about respect for the "people of the book" - Jews and Christians. Jesus was unequivocal about loving the enemy, and Hillel was not wishy-washy about the golden rule. I don't think any of them were suggesting to do this when it was convenient. But the American rationale for war on Islam is exactly that - convenient.

Ashermusic wrote on Tue, 04 December 2007 10:13


And DS, I would be happy to meet you for lunch.

I suggest Amir's Falafel, Colfax and Ventura, a bunch of crazy Israelis who make the best falafel and potato salad in town.

DS
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Ashermusic

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Re: OK, defend this.
« Reply #92 on: December 04, 2007, 05:11:04 pm »

mgod wrote on Tue, 04 December 2007 21:54

[
I suggest Amir's Falafel, Colfax and Ventura, a bunch of crazy Israelis who make the best falafel and potato salad in town.

DS



Great let's set it up for next week.

We can continue our discussion but I really am through here.
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Daniel Farris

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Re: OK, defend this.
« Reply #93 on: December 05, 2007, 01:59:42 am »

Quote:

On the other hand I am still awaiting the day when I see a protest by Muslims in great numbers anywhere in the Middle East condemning an attack against innocents by Al Qaeda,etc. while when an Israeli attack occurs there will be a lot of protesters in Israel and around the word as there is when the U.S. attacks. The proof of one';s moral integrity is the willingness to criticize "your own." It is abundant in Western civilization but almost non-existent in non-Western civilization. Does no one else here think that is kind of an important point?


This is a cultural difference. Are you familiar with the well known middle eastern saying that goes:

"Me against my brother; me and my brother against our cousins; me and my brother and our cousins against the world."

They may disagree with Islamic Extremists, but they aren't going to demonstrate publicly about it. That just isn't done in their culture.

DF
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studiojimi

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Re: OK, defend this.
« Reply #94 on: December 05, 2007, 02:05:23 pm »

mgod wrote on Tue, 04 December 2007 13:54


I suggest Amir's Falafel, Colfax and Ventura, a bunch of crazy Israelis who make the best falafel and potato salad in town.

DS


i was at that corner lookiing for something to eat yesterday getting a repair gone

opted for andre's ribs at colfax and moorpark
one light north

and had a great chicken dinner

will have to try amir's
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mgod

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Re: OK, defend this.
« Reply #95 on: December 05, 2007, 03:08:26 pm »

Daniel Farris wrote on Tue, 04 December 2007 22:59


They may disagree with Islamic Extremists, but they aren't going to demonstrate publicly about it. That just isn't done in their culture.
DF

Not just in their culture. Witness the accusations against "America-hating liberals" who protest this war and the administrations response - spying and taking names, just like SAVAK, just like Saddam. Laws have been passed here that allow president-for-life George Bush to arrest those people at his personal whim, and the public will probably not fight it for this very reason - dissent during war time tends to be labeled by the populace itself as treason - whereas actual legally-specified treason, the outing of a CIA undercover agent, goes unprotested under the guise of "we're all supporting the troops." This really has been the most perfect coup. (Why, everything worked out so perfectly for these criminals that one might almost think it was planned that way - but no, that would be a conspiracy...) Protesters are accused of "comforting the enemy". Hard to do when the enemy is in the White House. But this has always been the way that people allow dissent to be silenced.

This tendency to cluster and then not want to be seen engaging in infighting is  pretty common everywhere - especially anywhere anybody feels aggrieved. American Jews are not supposed to criticize Israel. Politicians are not supposed to criticize members of their own party. Scientologists, well they don't screw around - they take action.

DS
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maxdimario

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Re: OK, defend this.
« Reply #96 on: December 05, 2007, 08:13:05 pm »

I think it was stated correctly in the post above that poverty, hunger etc. are what drive people to agression.

When poverty walks into the door, love jumps out of the window, it has been said..

yes, there are people who are weaker than others from a spiritual point of view.  There are people who are more easily led into taking part in the Dark Side.. Evil.. whatever you may wish to call it..

but the amount of responsibility that one has is directly tied to the amount of POWER that one can exhibit over his fellow man..

One definition of evil is when the ruling power is corrupt and goes against the good of all for personal satisfaction..

in today's world you need to go BEYOND the weakness of individuals in the ghettos, neighbourhoods etc. and realize that they are meaningless individuals involved in a MOVEMENT.

the movement is fueled and sustained by more powerful men who wish to seek personal gain from it and will use anything at their disposal starting from money and political influence and including religion..

when certain decisions are made by influential men they are often coordinated with and by other men of influence..

So while it is true that simple men, in their weakness succomb to their passions and their beliefs, and their anger.. in the end they are not really the cause.

If you put a group of people in a cage and only throw in food for half of the people to survive, there will be violence sooner or later.

so who's really to blame?

the people in the cage or the gatekeepers?
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ScotcH

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Re: OK, defend this.
« Reply #97 on: December 06, 2007, 11:59:23 am »

Hey, that's some good shit there, Max.  Well said.  It's unfortunate that is makes sterotyping so easy, but stereotypes emerge for a reason.  Whatever the root case is (and I agree with you), there is no denying that the middle east has some major problems that need to be resolved (though not neccesarily by outside forces or influence).

I just wish they would stop jabbering about inconsequential shit like cartoons and teddy bears that do absolutely no harm.  It really makes them look like immbeciles in the eyes of other people.  Other issues (like bombing, invasions, etc.) they have every right to complain and fight against.
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amorris

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Re: OK, defend this.
« Reply #98 on: December 06, 2007, 12:20:50 pm »

quote:
If you put a group of people in a cage and only throw in food for half of the people to survive, there will be violence sooner or later.


Is that what is happening? what about throwing in more food than they all could eat. i.e. oil revenue. the power over there is keeping all the money in very few hands. Its funny that our involevment is over "oil" yet theirs is not? their theocracy is about who controls the oil money, when they decide to sell it to china.
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