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Author Topic: OK, defend this.  (Read 9054 times)

Ashermusic

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Re: OK, defend this.
« Reply #75 on: December 03, 2007, 05:10:50 pm »

mgod wrote on Mon, 03 December 2007 17:54


You keep changing the subject. There are substantial numbers of every kind of person who think it OK to kill others - not just Mooslims. Witness our American 2003 slaughter from the air of an innocent populace who had nothing to do with attacking us in 2001. You seem to think that's OK - even though far greater numbers of "those types" were killed than "our types." This is simply terrorism, with a nationalist justification behind it. I understand you don't support this war - how then to support the excuse, which continue to be justified by demonizing Islam?

It might well be that if Israel was not there, but more importantly if we had no bases there, we would have no conflict with that part of the world. Currently, and for a large part of the last century, we've been literally or practically an invading and occupying force.

If we were gone then they're killing each other would be their own business, and you likely wouldn't have any more opinion to express about it than you do about Africans slaughtering Africans for ancient tribal reasons: i.e. 0.

DS




First of all, we have not been discussing Africa so you have no idea what my views are or are not. Bill Clinton says his biggest regret was not intervening there and I agree with him. It is shameful.

You view on the Iraq War is IMHO as extreme and distorted as Bush's on the other side. Turn 180 degrees from wrong and you end up at wrong. I mourn the loss of any innocent, American or Muslim, but there is a huge moral difference between accidentally killing one while attacking an enemy and targeting them, a distinction you clearly do not make. To call it terrorism is absurd. To call it a huge mistake is far more reasonable.

And much as  we all hate it, the world runs on oil and we have a geo-political and economic need to have a presence in the region and it is not wrong for a country to protect those interests.

But you have the right to your point of view so vote for Kucinich, or Ron Paul, or whoever else represents your views. I  will be voting for either Hillary or Obama in all probability, neither of whom go as far left as you do, and I  say to you respectfully that I will be thanking whatever gods there be that more Americans think like me than you.

And now, I really am done.

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i dig music

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Re: OK, defend this.
« Reply #76 on: December 03, 2007, 06:14:15 pm »

Ashermusic wrote on Mon, 03 December 2007 16:10

mgod wrote on Mon, 03 December 2007 17:54


You keep changing the subject. There are substantial numbers of every kind of person who think it OK to kill others - not just Mooslims. Witness our American 2003 slaughter from the air of an innocent populace who had nothing to do with attacking us in 2001. You seem to think that's OK - even though far greater numbers of "those types" were killed than "our types." This is simply terrorism, with a nationalist justification behind it. I understand you don't support this war - how then to support the excuse, which continue to be justified by demonizing Islam?

It might well be that if Israel was not there, but more importantly if we had no bases there, we would have no conflict with that part of the world. Currently, and for a large part of the last century, we've been literally or practically an invading and occupying force.

If we were gone then they're killing each other would be their own business, and you likely wouldn't have any more opinion to express about it than you do about Africans slaughtering Africans for ancient tribal reasons: i.e. 0.

DS




First of all, we have not been discussing Africa so you have no idea what my views are or are not. Bill Clinton says his biggest regret was not intervening there and I agree with him. It is shameful.

You view on the Iraq War is IMHO as extreme and distorted as Bush's on the other side. Turn 180 degrees from wrong and you end up at wrong. I mourn the loss of any innocent, American or Muslim, but there is a huge moral difference between accidentally killing one while attacking an enemy and targeting them, a distinction you clearly do not make. To call it terrorism is absurd. To call it a huge mistake is far more reasonable.

And much as  we all hate it, the world runs on oil and we have a geo-political and economic need to have a presence in the region and it is not wrong for a country to protect those interests.

But you have the right to your point of view so vote for Kucinich, or Ron Paul, or whoever else represents your views. I  will be voting for either Hillary or Obama in all probability, neither of whom go as far left as you do, and I  say to you respectfully that I will be thanking whatever gods there be that more Americans think like me than you.

And now, I really am done.




asher, when does your gig at fox news start? Very Happy
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John Ivan

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Re: OK, defend this.
« Reply #77 on: December 03, 2007, 06:31:34 pm »

Ashermusic wrote on Sat, 01 December 2007 11:10

i dig music wrote on Fri, 30 November 2007 22:41

asher, no disrespect to you, but it appears like you are trying to call some people out.

we all have different opinions and views, but i don't believe anybody here is going to to try to "defend" that.

there's all sorts of unbelievable shit going on in this world, but you can't lump in all muslims in to the same basket and tell us that they all feel the same way, or approve of the same things.

in the middle east {or everywhere else} you have radical, moderate and stoned nonconformists. it's hard to get people on the same page, but when radicals in any neighborhood are using chainsaws to sever heads and getting away with it, people that live there take notice and don't make to many waves for obvious reasons.

what we see and hear about in that part of the world is not only to terrorize us, but to terrorize the people that live there to. the point to this brand of terrorism is to keep any opposition to an ideology or government afraid and compliant.

we have seen it in history many times before. it's nothing new.

it's very hard to take a stand against. all sorts of things motivate people, but fear usually does the trick in most cases.

it should not to be taken lightly.



It was indeed meant as a call out but not a hostile one. I am just trying to shake the folks who believe that "all cultures are morally equal, it  is just a matter of your perception and you simply need to get together to talk out your differences" crowd out of their dream world and recognize what it is we are dealing with.

I guess what bothers me overall these days is the refusal of liberals ( I am a Centrist) to simply acknowledge  that fact that unlike any other religion at this point in history Islam has a large number of adherents that believe death is an acceptable punishment for any perceived disrespect for their religion and are unwilling to condemn that.

Do I believe that ALL muslims or even MOST believe this? Of course not. Do I believe that out of the app. 1 billion Muslims on the planet perhaps millions and certainly at least hundreds of thousands do? You bet I do and every kind of polling that is done supports that.

We cannot deal with the cultural differences if we do not acknowledge they exist and be willing to simply say that it is wrong to advocate putting a person to death for this kind of offense.



I'm a Liberal. I don't now, nor have I ever believed what it is you claim I believe.. My Liberal friends don't either..

How is it, exactly, that some one who calls them self a "centrist" would start such a post? You can fantasize about "calling people out" if you want but I'm thinking that very few people think what you claim they think..

Nonsense..

Ivan..................
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maxim

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Re: OK, defend this.
« Reply #78 on: December 03, 2007, 09:18:05 pm »

"It might well be that if Israel was not there... we would have no conflict with that part of the world"

i blame the brits for the whole israel fiasco (what they were really saying "here you go you'd better go back where you came from before we exterminate the rest of you" is suspect, imo.. no wonder british jews are confused)

and we all know what REALLY happened to lawrence of arabia

if you calculate the amount of pain inflicted per head of population, the litlle country of england is way ahead of the rest...
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mgod

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Re: OK, defend this.
« Reply #79 on: December 03, 2007, 09:25:11 pm »

Ashermusic wrote on Mon, 03 December 2007 14:10


First of all, we have not been discussing Africa so you have no idea what my views are or are not. Bill Clinton says his biggest regret was not intervening there and I agree with him. It is shameful.


But, but, but...the event you're complaining about did happen in Africa, didn't it? And no, I don't know how you feel about Africans killing Africans, but we all sure know how you think about Muslims killing Muslims and apparently because they're Muslims that makes them worse - this is the logic of where you took us. Else wise, there would be nothing for you to comment on because what Sunni and Shia do is no different than what many people do. My friend, your logic is as shot full of holes as the administration's is. If Muslims do it, we attack - if someone else does it, we turn away.
Ashermusic wrote on Mon, 03 December 2007 14:10


You view on the Iraq War is IMHO as extreme and distorted as Bush's on the other side. Turn 180 degrees from wrong and you end up at wrong.


Must be that fuzzy math... Let's see - wrong is over here, now I turn right away from it I end up facing...no...that's not it... Oh, I'll never get it!

Ashermusic wrote on Mon, 03 December 2007 14:10

 
I mourn the loss of any innocent, American or Muslim, but there is a huge moral difference between accidentally killing one while attacking an enemy and targeting them, a distinction you clearly do not make. To call it terrorism is absurd. To call it a huge mistake is far more reasonable.


Far more reasonable to you, snug in your nice home in the Valley. Half a world away from the children and women who were bombed in their homes. Yes, far more reasonable. Just as dead, just as maimed; but reasonable, not extreme or distorted.

Now - lets think again - WHY are they the enemy? You call them that. Can you please tell us, what is it that made them the enemy, and justified our reasonable non-terrorist attack on them? Was it the WMD? No...no..it wasn't that. Was it freedom on the march? No..no..it wasn't that. Dang it! You'll just have to tell me what made these people my enemy.

Huge mistake? A hundred thousand dead from a mistake? And this doesn't explain a bit of Arab anger at the country that committed this huge mistake?  And you tell us that you mourn the loss of an innocent? How do you mourn it? By explaining it away?

Yes - it was deliberate and I call it terrorism. Just because its committed by a government, OUR government, doesn't change the facts. Only weak thinking does. We invaded a country which hadn't harmed us, killed innocent people, all based on what the people pursuing the war knew were lies to deceive the people who could stop it. Terrorism on a global scale.  Yes, unreasonable and extreme of me, you are correct, sir!

Ashermusic wrote on Mon, 03 December 2007 14:10


And much as  we all hate it, the world runs on oil and we have a geo-political and economic need to have a presence in the region and it is not wrong for a country to protect those interests.


Ah...there it is, finally. The justification for the death of innocents. Now we know why we mourn them. How lucky for us that their faith makes them so easy to dismiss from our minds.

Ashermusic wrote on Mon, 03 December 2007 14:10


But you have the right to your point of view so vote for Kucinich, or Ron Paul, or whoever else represents your views. I  will be voting for either Hillary or Obama in all probability, neither of whom go as far left as you do, and I  say to you respectfully that I will be thanking whatever gods there be that more Americans think like me than you.


Not likely. Thank god.

Hell, after reading you, I'm voting for Bush/Cheney! I want my oil! Lives, responsibility, decency and honor be damned!
Ashermusic wrote on Mon, 03 December 2007 14:10


And now, I really am done.


Yes, you really are. OK - lets go to lunch!

DS
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danickstr

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Re: OK, defend this.
« Reply #80 on: December 03, 2007, 10:48:25 pm »

if musicians were politicians it sure would be hard to get the bad guys killed.
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Larrchild

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Re: OK, defend this.
« Reply #81 on: December 03, 2007, 11:49:34 pm »

Keeping Heaven stocked with fresh souls is probably not what our career counselors in high school wrote in our file.
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Hank Alrich

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Re: OK, defend this.
« Reply #82 on: December 04, 2007, 12:34:20 am »

mgod wrote on Sun, 02 December 2007 12:19



Not so long ago the Christian west was exactly that, burning heretics and "witches", driving Jews from their homes, etc. All the while Islam was giving us modern mathematics and architecture.




Just the other day I was trying to calc available disc space for a tracking session, using Roman Numerals. I found this difficult enough that if I had a religion I'd have thought of changing it.

malice

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Re: OK, defend this.
« Reply #83 on: December 04, 2007, 07:47:04 am »

Hank Alrich wrote on Tue, 04 December 2007 06:34

mgod wrote on Sun, 02 December 2007 12:19



Not so long ago the Christian west was exactly that, burning heretics and "witches", driving Jews from their homes, etc. All the while Islam was giving us modern mathematics and architecture.




Just the other day I was trying to calc available disc space for a tracking session, using Roman Numerals. I found this difficult enough that if I had a religion I'd have thought of changing it.


As everybody tries to be a smart ass about the subject, I'm surprised no one dared to respond a previous post I made.

Lemme bring you all back to reality about some of our own worse aspects of idocy and lack of humanity.

Interracial marriages were illegal in most states of america until July 12, 1967

Is that close enough history to you now ?

Again, my point was, and I don't intend to defend this ad nauseam, that all civilisation are developping with different rythms , and that we have to respect that. We are all humans and every one of our cultures are precious.

As supposely most developped civilisations (  Rolling Eyes  ), we are entitled to patience and guidance, not crusades.

As sad as this thing might be, there is no point of stigmatizing a whole country and a fortiori an entire religion over this isolated event.

I can't be more peacefull than that, I'm at the max now Very Happy

peace to all, even asher and Jimi Very Happy

malice

kraster

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Re: OK, defend this.
« Reply #84 on: December 04, 2007, 08:19:33 am »

I live in Ireland.

People bombed the shit out of each other for 30 years.

Catholic vs. Protestant.

At the Holy cross school Catholic children ran the gauntlet each day. 4 year old children were subjected to daily abuse. A paramilitary group even went so far as to leave a pipe bomb at the gates of the school.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2003/0106/north1.html

Bear in mind this is 4 years ago. Less than a half a decade.

The 30 years of violence included attacks on mourners at a graveside, blowing up a church in Enniskillen that killed people attending a rememberance day celebration, a mob that took two undercover police officers and savagely killed them (all on camera), a paramilitary group that opened fire on a protestant service, a bomb in Omagh, Co. Tyrone that ripped apart the community. The list is endless. This was all done under the auspices of Christianity.

Is this indicative of Christian behaviour?

Are all Christians to be judged by the behaviour of these people?

Are all Catholics mindless murderers? Are all Protestants child abusers?

Any sane individual would deplore these acts of violence.

This is the inherant danger of using sweeping generalisations of calling religion to account for the actions of psychopaths.

As has beeen said many times on this thread. The problems are social and cultural and have very little to do with religion.

Only this year we had a million Muslims marching in Turkey demanding that the state remain secular.

Religion is a handy scapegoat for people to bash each other over the head with. Those who see religion as the cause are no better than the people that use it as an excuse to intimidate children.

It is forbidden under islamic law to harm children and women or anyone that does not bother you. But still they do it. They are pissing all over the very texts that they purportedly enables their psychotic behaviour. It's not fucking religion IT'S PEOPLE that do these things. It's the same old same old.

Asher, do you sincerely think that if religion were eliminated from the face of the earth that the killing would stop? I would truly advise you to think again if you believe that to be true.

It would serve people well to look beyond it and see that the  old timeless problems are at the bottom of this. Poverty, injustice, inherited mistrust, intolerance and greed. All our unfortunate human traits.
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PookyNMR

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Re: OK, defend this.
« Reply #85 on: December 04, 2007, 11:35:32 am »

Well said.

kraster wrote on Tue, 04 December 2007 06:19

It's not fucking religion IT'S PEOPLE that do these things. It's the same old same old.

Asher, do you sincerely think that if religion were eliminated from the face of the earth that the killing would stop? I would truly advise you to think again if you believe that to be true.

It would serve people well to look beyond it and see that the old timeless problems are at the bottom of this. Poverty, injustice, inherited mistrust, intolerance and greed. All our unfortunate human traits.


I particularly agree with this part.
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Ashermusic

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Re: OK, defend this.
« Reply #86 on: December 04, 2007, 01:13:06 pm »

OK, I have been giving this considerable re-thought thanks to the really  good points made by some of you here (not an easy task as they are surrounded by some simply silly arguments IMHO).

My understanding is that most Muslims consider Islam to be both a religion and a legal system. Therefore something that they interpret in the Qu'ran (maybe, indeed probably, incorrectly) not only is their religious obligation but in their mind has the force of law and this is what makes dealing with Islamic groups so difficult.

So the line between the religious flaws and cultural flaws are hard to delineate.

Here in the U.S. e.g. a Christian pro-life extremist who bombs an abortion clinic because he believes abortion is murder may in his mind have the belief that he is obeying a moral law but he knows darned well that it is not legal in the eyes of U.S. law.

So it is easy to conclude that in that case an extremist religious view, rather than an extremist culture, that is at the root of it.

In the Islamic countries the line is not so clear. People have been judged innocent who committed honor killings because they see them as equivalent to what we in the West call "justifiable homicide."

Where I differ from many of you is that I am willing to say flat out that that belief is sick and wrong as an absolute, not just different than ours.

So the fact that many Muslims believe that when dealing with non-believers the choices are:

1. Convert them.

2. Allow them to live as second class citizens (BTW, did any of you see the 60 Minutes segment about Christians living in Iraq and how much worse it is for them than under Sadaam last Sunday?

3. Kill them.

I don't know if that is because of the religion Islam or the culture of those that practice Islam, and perhaps some Christians and Hindus too.

What I do know is that for whatever reason those that subscribe to this are overwhelmingly Muslim.

I taught music about 15 years ago at an Islamic school in L.A for a year. They were lovely, gentle, people and I  cannot for a nanosecond imagine that any  of them would condone these beliefs. They are not the enemy. On the other hand I  am still awaiting the day when I see a protest by Muslims in great numbers anywhere in the Middle East condemning an attack against innocents by Al Qaeda,etc. while when an Israeli attack occurs there will be a lot of protesters in Israel and around the word as there is when the U.S. attacks. The proof of one';s moral integrity is the willingness to criticize "your own." It is abundant in Western civilization but almost non-existent in non-Western civilization. Does no one else here think that is kind of an important point?

Perhaps it is my  own fault but I think people are unclear about what I believe so let me clarify and then really, don't you agree I should move on? Is there really any new argument I can make that is going to change anyone's mind?

1. Torture is wrong, what happened frequently at Guantanamo and Abu Grab is wrong, and the Bush administration has violated many human rights.

2. While there were some good reasons for going into Iraq they were not the ones that the Bush administration used as justification and the  war has been ineptly prosecuted and as a result there have been needless deaths. Nonetheless it  is not morally equivalent to the targeting of  innocents, including  fellow Muslims, by Al Qaeda, Hamas, and Hezbollah.

3. Because they do not believe that non-believers should be allowed to peacefully co-exist and co-govern with believers, the Islamic religious and/or cultural extremists pose a significant threat to non-believers that is not even close to being matched in sheer numbers by any other religious and/or cultural group.

4. Hillary Clinton, Joe Biden, Chris Dodd, and to a lesser degree Barak Obama largely share my views so I am not a Republican right-winger or neo-con or Fox News candidate. Nor am I a Dennis Kucinich/Bill Richardson guy. To me turning 180 degrees from wrong still brings you to wrong.

5. Richard Clarke in his book "Against All Enemies" has analyzed and come up with the best answers, and there are no easy ones, for confronting  what we face. I would encourage you all to read it as well as Lawrence Wright's "The Looming Tower." Both are IMHO fair-minded, balanced, and are not "hate" books.

Finally, I  am not angry with anyone here nor was I personally offended by anything anyone wrote and if I offended anyone I am sorry. I come from a Jewish-American background where these kind of discussions/disagreements are common practice among those who love and respect each other.

And DS, I would be happy to meet you for lunch.


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studiojimi

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Re: OK, defend this.
« Reply #87 on: December 04, 2007, 01:24:52 pm »

malice wrote on Tue, 04 December 2007 04:47



I can't be more peacefull than that, I'm at the max now Very Happy

peace to all, even asher and Jimi Very Happy

malice



we'll be the judge of that!

why single asher and myself away from the group of the rest of this bundle of God's kids?

was it a peaceful thought that made you distinguish where you choose to spew your love?

love is all inclusive and to separate two of God's kids from the pack.... well.... is....conflictive.  and what peace is in that?

i'm not sure i believer you.
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malice

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Re: OK, defend this.
« Reply #88 on: December 04, 2007, 02:12:27 pm »

studiojimi wrote on Tue, 04 December 2007 19:24

malice wrote on Tue, 04 December 2007 04:47



I can't be more peacefull than that, I'm at the max now Very Happy

peace to all, even asher and Jimi Very Happy

malice



we'll be the judge of that!


What makes you think this long and inane conflict between us interests more people than you ? (I would have said "you and me" if I gave a damn)

Quote:

why single asher and myself away from the group of the rest of this bundle of God's kids?


Because asher and I had a disagreement over the subject. You, well ... I couldn't help but noticed you expected some promisses to not discuss about the thread anymore, and in some other thread, well ... some childish, though funny,  bait uppon me.

Quote:

was it a peaceful thought that made you distinguish where you choose to spew your love?



What I spewed was peace, and I just wanted to make sure you wouldn't feel secluded from it.

Quote:

love is all inclusive and to separate two of God's kids from the pack.... well.... is....conflictive.  and what peace is in that?


read again<;

Quote:

i'm not sure i believer you.


your bad

malice
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Ashermusic

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Re: OK, defend this.
« Reply #89 on: December 04, 2007, 02:33:18 pm »

[/quote]

Because asher and I had a disagreement over the subject. Y

malice
radiating love in the room
[/quote]

BTW, Isabella, I don't like your politics but I LOVE your music. You are very talented.

Jay

www.jayasher.com
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