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Author Topic: OK, defend this.  (Read 8774 times)

Ashermusic

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Re: OK, defend this.
« Reply #45 on: December 02, 2007, 01:01:20 pm »

now THAT was a contribution.
don't know anything about thie Richard clarke but...

that all sounds positive and solution oriented.

i don't know enough about this Richard Clarke but i resonate with [/quote]

Thanks Jimi.

 http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw/102-0115702-5681774?url  =search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=Richard+Clarke&x= 0&y=0
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Jay Kadis

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Re: OK, defend this.
« Reply #46 on: December 02, 2007, 01:17:13 pm »

Those ideas only nibble around the edges of the problem.  Poverty is the real underlying root of nearly all of the discord.  When there's a more equal distribution of global wealth there will be far less trouble with radicalism.  Once everyone has a reasonable standard of living you will see the other issues fade.

When you have something to lose you think twice about taking desperate actions.

malice

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Re: OK, defend this.
« Reply #47 on: December 02, 2007, 02:53:02 pm »

Ashermusic wrote on Sun, 02 December 2007 18:12


I disagree. A civilization that condones honor killing, clitoridectomy, killing as a permissible punishment to those who violate their sensibilities of offending their religion, etc.  is NOT "precious."


You are mixing everything, and you seem to not understand Islam at all. Beside, you seem to forget a civilisation is in constant evolution and deciding one is not "precious" albeit worthy of survival is admiiting our own western civilisation should be extinct for the same reasons you apparently think suddan is not worthy of survival.

Quote:

It is backward, medieval, inhumane, sexist, racist, reprehensible, and we should not be afraid to stand up and say so.


May I remind you than US was considering "acceptable" to put black people at the rear of busses less than a century ago and that mariage between black people and white people was a crime less than 30 years ago in some states. Why wouldn't you grant the same opportunity of evolution to Suddan than to your own country ?


Quote:

The idea that all civilizations are morally equal, just different, is pernicious and IMHO the biggest danger to the world.


Your are not borderline to obscurantism here, you are borderline to nazism

This is the same way of thinking that justified genocides thru history of mankind, and I'm afraid I have to remind you that even  United States had its share of attrocities in a not so distand past. Learning from the mistakes is part of the process, and you should accept the fact that it is necessary for every civilisation to bear this burdden.


Quote:


There are no such opportunities permitted in the "precious" civilizations of the Middle East.



Your misconceptions about the Middle East ( and I do mean the ones from your very own administration)  has caused tremendous suffering and chaos. The same self righteous vision you seem to show here, have put the whole Middle east in a state of dangerous instability, and weakened your country dramaticaly.



malice

Andy Peters

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Re: OK, defend this.
« Reply #48 on: December 02, 2007, 02:57:17 pm »

Jay Kadis wrote on Sun, 02 December 2007 11:17

Those ideas only nibble around the edges of the problem.  Poverty is the real underlying root of nearly all of the discord.  When there's a more equal distribution of global wealth there will be far less trouble with radicalism.  Once everyone has a reasonable standard of living you will see the other issues fade.


Exactly.

And as long as there is poverty and the world is divided into the haves and the have-nots, there will be people who will tell the have-nots that some group is to blame for all of their ills.

When your "target demographic" is poor and uneducated, they're easier to manipulate.

Of course, on the side of the "haves" there is always the active effort to maintain the status quo. Interestingly, some of the same techniques used by those who incite the rabble (if you will) are used by those who incite the upper class: fear of those "others" who would take the have's (typically God-given) property, which is not much different from the fear of those "others" would would prevent the have-nots from obtaining their (typically God-given) property.

it all gives me a headache.

-a
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Andy Peters

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Re: OK, defend this.
« Reply #49 on: December 02, 2007, 03:04:02 pm »

Ashermusic wrote on Sat, 01 December 2007 14:52

I totally agree with John McCain in his unequivocal condemnation of torture.


Unfortunately, McCain's condemnations are not unequivocal.

It's one thing to make campaign stump speeches condemning this or that. The soundbites and the appearances on The Daily Show make him seem like he is on the correct side of this debate (and why is there even a debate?).

It's quite another thing to sit in the Senate and vote in lockstep with your Republican buddies AGAINST any legislation or condemnation of torture. He should be LEADING efforts to impeach Bush and Cheney for allowing the use of torture, rather than making weak statements of condemnation.

McCain is a fool who has repeatedly let the Bush administration pwn him. I am embarrassed that he allegedly represents me in the Senate. (Kyl is even worse, if one can imagine.)

Sorry, McCain, your time is up.  I, for one, cannot wait for Senator Napolitano to replace his sorry ass in the Senate.

-a
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mgod

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Re: OK, defend this.
« Reply #50 on: December 02, 2007, 03:19:57 pm »

Ashermusic wrote on Sun, 02 December 2007 09:12

It is backward, medieval, inhumane, sexist, racist, reprehensible, and we should not be afraid to stand up and say so.


Not so long ago the Christian west was exactly that, burning heretics and "witches", driving Jews from their homes, etc. All the while Islam was giving us modern mathematics and architecture.

Really, the Christian West is still at it, as you demonstrate - continuing to demonize the other, in this case Islam, which gives rise to terrorism against "us" and massive invasion resulting in outright theft of property and life against "them." The idea that Muslim terrorism is sui generis, its own evil thing with nothing giving rise to it, is I think the single most evil thought that is perpetrated in the West - we are absolved of all blame because their tactics are not addressable by the conventional warfare which "we" excel at. If only those evil doers would play the game! So, then the logical conclusion of everything Mr. Asher has said is that if we face an invading force of Muslims from around the world, we could not have a legitimate complaint against Islam itself. Mr. Asher - you're in a fit about tactics, and you're using your ancient and highly propagandistic ideas about the enemy you select to justify traditional barbaric thinking. Yes, this is a war and we started it. And we use religion to justify and excuse ourselves. That's what this discussion is really about. Mr. Asher is simply either distracted by, or trying to distract us by complaining about a way of life he doesn't know but of which he disapproves.

I'll go Richard Clarke one better: leave them alone, pay market prices for their oil, and I bet we go a looooooong way to peace.

DS
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Ashermusic

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Re: OK, defend this.
« Reply #51 on: December 02, 2007, 04:09:54 pm »

mgod wrote on Sun, 02 December 2007 20:19

Ashermusic wrote on Sun, 02 December 2007 09:12

It is backward, medieval, inhumane, sexist, racist, reprehensible, and we should not be afraid to stand up and say so.


Not so long ago the Christian west was exactly that, burning heretics and "witches", driving Jews from their homes, etc. All the while Islam was giving us modern mathematics and architecture.

Really, the Christian West is still at it, as you demonstrate - continuing to demonize the other, in this case Islam, which gives rise to terrorism against "us" and massive invasion resulting in outright theft of property and life against "them." The idea that Muslim terrorism is sui generis, its own evil thing with nothing giving rise to it, is I think the single most evil thought that is perpetrated in the West - we are absolved of all blame because their tactics are not addressable by the conventional warfare which "we" excel at. If only those evil doers would play the game! So, then the logical conclusion of everything Mr. Asher has said is that if we face an invading force of Muslims from around the world, we could not have a legitimate complaint against Islam itself. Mr. Asher - you're in a fit about tactics, and you're using your ancient and highly propagandistic ideas about the enemy you select to justify traditional barbaric thinking. Yes, this is a war and we started it. And we use religion to justify and excuse ourselves. That's what this discussion is really about. Mr. Asher is simply either distracted by, or trying to distract us by complaining about a way of life he doesn't know but of which he disapproves.

I'll go Richard Clarke one better: leave them alone, pay market prices for their oil, and I bet we go a looooooong way to peace.

DS



1. "Not so long ago" is three hundred years ago. Whatever Christianity's past sins, and yes they are many, it does not reflect Christianity today. And I am not Christian.

2. Islamic terrorism may not be sui generis but at this time in history it stands alone in its practices on  a large scale.

3. I  find it interesting how you avoid  even discussing the sexism of the culture. You bet I disapprove of it and you should too. Even at its worst Christianity never tolerated honor killing, clitoridectomy,  etc. But who cares, after all, you are not a woman, right?  And after all, it is just another value system, no more or less moral, right?

4. According to Osama Bin Laden, the attacks on the U.S, which started long before Iraq, were begun because we affronted him and in his mind all Islam by defiling Islam with our infidel presence on the sacred holy ground of Saudia Arabia which contains the holy cities of Mecca and Medina. This also turned him against the House of Saud. BTW, in those days, he never mentioned the Palestinian issue, raising that later was strictly a  tactical choice. You really ought to read "The Looming Tower."

Your idea of going Clarke one better is is essentially how Neville Chamberlain proposed dealing with Hitler and we all saw how well that worked.

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Ashermusic

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Re: OK, defend this.
« Reply #52 on: December 02, 2007, 04:13:41 pm »

Andy Peters wrote on Sun, 02 December 2007 19:57

Jay Kadis wrote on Sun, 02 December 2007 11:17

Those ideas only nibble around the edges of the problem.  Poverty is the real underlying root of nearly all of the discord.  When there's a more equal distribution of global wealth there will be far less trouble with radicalism.  Once everyone has a reasonable standard of living you will see the other issues fade.


Exactly.

And as long as there is poverty and the world is divided into the haves and the have-nots, there will be people who will tell the have-nots that some group is to blame for all of their ills.

When your "target demographic" is poor and uneducated, they're easier to manipulate.

Of course, on the side of the "haves" there is always the active effort to maintain the status quo. Interestingly, some of the same techniques used by those who incite the rabble (if you will) are used by those who incite the upper class: fear of those "others" who would take the have's (typically God-given) property, which is not much different from the fear of those "others" would would prevent the have-nots from obtaining their (typically God-given) property.

it all gives me a headache.

-a


This is most certainly a big factor but not one with much solution in sight. It  requires a whole different discussion from dealing with the reality of what is now as opposed  to the reality we all would like to see.
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Larrchild

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Re: OK, defend this.
« Reply #53 on: December 02, 2007, 04:17:36 pm »

Larry's Law: " All threads concerning our involvement in the Middle East will eventually invoke Neville Chamberlain.
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malice

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Re: OK, defend this.
« Reply #54 on: December 02, 2007, 04:57:14 pm »

Ashermusic wrote on Sun, 02 December 2007 22:09



3. I  find it interesting how you avoid  even discussing the sexism of the culture. You bet I disapprove of it and you should too. Even at its worst Christianity never tolerated honor killing, clitoridectomy,  etc. But who cares, after all, you are not a woman, right?  And after all, it is just another value system, no more or less moral, right?





I find it interesting how you mix cliteridectomy ans Islam. There is no connection whatsoever. Cliteridectomy preceeds Islam in countries like Soudan.

Rolling Eyes

malice

i dig music

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Re: OK, defend this.
« Reply #55 on: December 02, 2007, 05:05:22 pm »

asher, i feel your solutions on how to address the issues are in direct conflict with your argument and position. it's almost like your playing both sides of the fence.

this tells me there is something else bothering you.

what is it?


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malice

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Re: OK, defend this.
« Reply #56 on: December 02, 2007, 05:22:25 pm »

i dig music wrote on Sun, 02 December 2007 23:05

asher, i feel your solutions on how to address the issues are in direct conflict with your argument and position. it's almost like your playing both sides of the fence.

this tells me there is something else bothering you.

what is it?





I do agree with that statement, and I'm starting to wonder what is the point of presenting this newz in a very confrontational manner.

"Defend this..." : as if the only way of not condoning this absurdity was to condemn islam and all muslim civilisations as a whole and without restrictions.

This way of forcing minds into rejecting a cultural, ethnical, or religious group over an isolated event, as condemnable as this event might be is a very old trick of propaganda.

I think I'm done with the subject, really.

It stinks

malice

studiojimi

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Re: OK, defend this.
« Reply #57 on: December 02, 2007, 05:58:30 pm »

malice wrote on Sun, 02 December 2007 14:22


I think I'm done with the subject, really.




promise?
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i dig music

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Re: OK, defend this.
« Reply #58 on: December 02, 2007, 06:46:16 pm »

studiojimi wrote on Sun, 02 December 2007 16:58

malice wrote on Sun, 02 December 2007 14:22


I think I'm done with the subject, really.




promise?



i think you guys should kiss and make up.

like i said earlier, it only takes one ass-hole to ruin a party, and neither of you were remotely close to being the one.

you guys use to be friends.... but were effected by the same brand of shit politics, {different place} we are talking about here.

say hello...how are you. it's not that hard.

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Ashermusic

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Re: OK, defend this.
« Reply #59 on: December 02, 2007, 07:11:37 pm »

i dig music wrote on Sun, 02 December 2007 23:46

studiojimi wrote on Sun, 02 December 2007 16:58

malice wrote on Sun, 02 December 2007 14:22


I think I'm done with the subject, really.




promise?



i think you guys should kiss and make up.

like i said earlier, it only takes one ass-hole to ruin a party, and neither of you were remotely close to being the one.

you guys use to be friends.... but were effected by the same brand of shit politics, {different place} we are talking about here.

say hello...how are you. it's not that hard.




Hey, I am not angry with anyone here. We are having an exchange of ideas and we disagree.
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