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Author Topic: OK, defend this.  (Read 8630 times)

Chris Ilett

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Re: OK, defend this.
« Reply #30 on: December 01, 2007, 05:05:42 pm »

We could offer Asher as some sort of trade.

Larrchild

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Re: OK, defend this.
« Reply #31 on: December 01, 2007, 05:12:05 pm »

Quote:

Why? There are only two possible reasons that I can come up with:
1. They are afraid they will be killed.
2. They agree with the actions.


If you apply this model to why Italians didn't have a public outcry against the Cosa Nostra, you would find it to be mainly "1", eh?
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Jay Kadis

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Re: OK, defend this.
« Reply #32 on: December 01, 2007, 05:13:44 pm »

Ashermusic wrote on Sat, 01 December 2007 13:52


Jay, apparently you are not aware that the Cole was bombed, the WTC attacked twice, attacks on the  Spanish, the British, and, oh yeah, the French and Germans, who did not support the Iraq war. You underestimate them at your peril.


Compare that with World Wars I and II and tell us if you think it's the same level of threat.  Overestimating the threat is not without its own consequences.

Ashermusic

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Re: OK, defend this.
« Reply #33 on: December 01, 2007, 05:17:18 pm »

Larrchild wrote on Sat, 01 December 2007 22:12

Quote:

Why? There are only two possible reasons that I can come up with:
1. They are afraid they will be killed.
2. They agree with the actions.


If you apply this model to why Italians didn't have a public outcry against the Cosa Nostra, you would find it to be mainly "1", eh?


I have no knowledge but my guess would be for some #1, some #1 and #2.

Although I remember once that a Mafia member who turned said that the average person had no reason to fear them, only those who tried to do business with them and double-crossed them. An interesting ethical code, no?

Either way, how is this germane to our discussion?
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Ashermusic

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Re: OK, defend this.
« Reply #34 on: December 01, 2007, 05:20:18 pm »

Jay Kadis wrote on Sat, 01 December 2007 22:13

Ashermusic wrote on Sat, 01 December 2007 13:52


Jay, apparently you are not aware that the Cole was bombed, the WTC attacked twice, attacks on the  Spanish, the British, and, oh yeah, the French and Germans, who did not support the Iraq war. You underestimate them at your peril.


Compare that with World Wars I and II and tell us if you think it's the same level of threat.  Overestimating the threat is not without its own consequences.


That  is a fair point Jay and the only reason I fear that it is perhaps potentially the same level is that so few Muslims in the Middle East condemn it.

If I saw Tienneman Square type Muslim protests in the Middle East against these behaviors I would be far less worried.
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mgod

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Re: OK, defend this.
« Reply #35 on: December 01, 2007, 05:32:31 pm »

Ashermusic wrote on Sat, 01 December 2007 13:52

Those who carried out Hitler and Stalin's orders were not doing so because of Christian philosophy or beliefs or in its name.

So they did it despite their faith which explicitly forbids them from harming another person. You're quibbling about words. There have been tens of millions slaughtered in Jesus' name. They've still got the edge over Islam when it comes to numbers.

Ashermusic wrote on Sat, 01 December 2007 13:52


When the U.S. engages in war with Iraq and in the opinion of some kills innocents wrongfully...

In the opinion of some?

I'm not interested in defending the actions of some loony Muslims in Africa- I'm more more concerned with and interested in the Western obsession with the so-called Islamic threat to our precious civilization. The threat in my own back yard is bigger - and a far greater danger to our civilization. Witness the rationales for fear, war and hate put forth here.

DS
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Larrchild

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Re: OK, defend this.
« Reply #36 on: December 01, 2007, 05:47:47 pm »

index.php/fa/6860/0/
The Commie Threat has been handily replaced by the Muslim threat in the fear trade of the right, that is apparent.

What's missed in your camp is that these "funny religions" like Islam have, for the majority of their participants, the same narrow goals of Job, House,Family, Internet, and Wii, as average Christians or Buddhists.

And it's always that small percentage of crazies that get paranoia fired up.

And like the "Outer Limits" episode where the neighbors all turn on each other, while the aliens chuckle.. provides the ever dividing nation you seek.

Again, these are not nations messing with us, they are gangs.
Small groups with big results.
And you are playing into it well.

I strongly suggest getting "Crash" on DVD and putting it in loop mode.
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Ashermusic

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Re: OK, defend this.
« Reply #37 on: December 01, 2007, 06:00:35 pm »

mgod wrote on Sat, 01 December 2007 22:32

Ashermusic wrote on Sat, 01 December 2007 13:52

Those who carried out Hitler and Stalin's orders were not doing so because of Christian philosophy or beliefs or in its name.

So they did it despite their faith which explicitly forbids them from harming another person. You're quibbling about words. There have been tens of millions slaughtered in Jesus' name. They've still got the edge over Islam when it comes to numbers.

Ashermusic wrote on Sat, 01 December 2007 13:52


When the U.S. engages in war with Iraq and in the opinion of some kills innocents wrongfully...

In the opinion of some?

I'm not interested in defending the actions of some loony Muslims in Africa- I'm more more concerned with and interested in the Western obsession with the so-called Islamic threat to our precious civilization. The threat in my own back yard is bigger - and a far greater danger to our civilization. Witness the rationales for fear, war and hate put forth here.

DS


Right,  and when I start to see Christians groups advocating and/or killing others because they do not accept Jesus as their savior, or for naming  their teddy bear Jesus, or writing an unflattering  book about Christianity., I swear to you I will be writing a thread here warning about the need to confront them. But you and I  both know  that will not happen.

Those "loony Muslims in Africa" share views about the way to treat  those with different values with hundreds of thousands of others, perhaps millions, and you are making it sound like they are a handful. They are not.

You  need not worry about  the threat in your own backyard because you are free to protest it, vote for candidates who do not  support the  actions you  do not like, etc. which in all likelihood will be happening next  November.

I can walk out in the middle of a street and say, "George Bush is a fascist" or "Catholic priests are all pedophiles" or "Jesus was an homo" and while it is possible I will offend  some individual who will be moved to throw a punch at me I will not be  imprisoned or killed by the government or police, no responsible religious group will be calling  for my execution, etc.

And indeed, that DOES make our civilization "precious."

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i dig music

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Re: OK, defend this.
« Reply #38 on: December 01, 2007, 07:23:11 pm »

Ashermusic wrote on Sat, 01 December 2007 17:00


Those "loony Muslims in Africa" share views about the way to treat  those with different values with hundreds of thousands of others, perhaps millions, and you are making it sound like they are a handful. They are not.


so asher,

what do you want to do about the "hundreds of thousands of others, perhaps millions" of muslims?

maybe....just maybe....it's a few arsehole's ruining things for everybody else in the world.

maybe....just maybe......

as mgod has has pointed out to you very clearly,

history is repeating. same game. new place. new faces. different time.

maybe....just maybe..... orders and policy are made by a few arsehole's in power for other reasons, using ideology as their excuse and justification.

it wouldn't be that much of a stretch. but what i think your saying is that we should weed out the bad ones and "deal with them"?


let's pretend like your in charge now.

how would you determine who is bad or good?

again, what would you do to the bad ones if you had the "power" to change and control what you fear?


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mgod

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Re: OK, defend this.
« Reply #39 on: December 01, 2007, 08:46:27 pm »

Ashermusic wrote on Sat, 01 December 2007 15:00

I can walk out in the middle of a street and say, "George Bush is a fascist" or "Catholic priests are all pedophiles" or "Jesus was an homo" and while it is possible I will offend  some individual who will be moved to throw a punch at me I will not be  imprisoned or killed by the government or police, no responsible religious group will be calling  for my execution, etc.


And "they" can't we're told - but how is that a threat to you or to me?

Can anybody say "Piss Christ"?
i dig music wrote on Sat, 01 December 2007 16:23


how would you determine who is bad or good?

Ooh! I know this one! Santa Claus!

DS
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maxim

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Re: OK, defend this.
« Reply #40 on: December 01, 2007, 08:54:48 pm »

"Stalin was enough of a military guy that he might have done a little killing, "

apparently, stalin/djugashvili was an armed robber in his youth
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malice

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Re: OK, defend this.
« Reply #41 on: December 01, 2007, 10:07:41 pm »

Ashermusic wrote on Sun, 02 December 2007 00:00


And indeed, that DOES make our civilization "precious."




All civilisations are "precious" regardless

malice

Ashermusic

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Re: OK, defend this.
« Reply #42 on: December 02, 2007, 12:12:00 pm »

malice wrote on Sun, 02 December 2007 03:07

Ashermusic wrote on Sun, 02 December 2007 00:00


And indeed, that DOES make our civilization "precious."





All civilisations are "precious" regardless

malice


I disagree. A civilization that condones honor killing, clitoridectomy, killing as a permissible punishment to those who violate their sensibilities of offending their religion, etc.  is NOT "precious."

It is backward, medieval, inhumane, sexist, racist, reprehensible, and we should not be afraid to stand up and say so.

The idea that all civilizations are morally equal, just different, is pernicious and IMHO the biggest danger to the world.

All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.

And for those of you who will now want to jump in with the usual "look at what your country is doing" I will point out that those who disagree with our country's actions, citizens or not, are free to protest and indeed are in large numbers and as we saw with the Vietnam War and are perhaps seeing the beginnings of now, can actually change things.

There are no such opportunities permitted in the "precious" civilizations of the Middle East.
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Ashermusic

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Re: OK, defend this.
« Reply #43 on: December 02, 2007, 12:25:38 pm »

i dig music wrote on Sun, 02 December 2007 00:23

Ashermusic wrote on Sat, 01 December 2007 17:00


Those "loony Muslims in Africa" share views about the way to treat  those with different values with hundreds of thousands of others, perhaps millions, and you are making it sound like they are a handful. They are not.


so asher,

what do you want to do about the "hundreds of thousands of others, perhaps millions" of muslims?

maybe....just maybe....it's a few arsehole's ruining things for everybody else in the world.

maybe....just maybe......

as mgod has has pointed out to you very clearly,

history is repeating. same game. new place. new faces. different time.

maybe....just maybe..... orders and policy are made by a few arsehole's in power for other reasons, using ideology as their excuse and justification.

it wouldn't be that much of a stretch. but what i think your saying is that we should weed out the bad ones and "deal with them"?


let's pretend like your in charge now.

how would you determine who is bad or good?

again, what would you do to the bad ones if you had the "power" to change and control what you fear?





Fair questions. Here is where I am supposed to write"bombs away", right?

I do not have all the answers. Richard Clarke has some of them and I use many of his.

1. Decrease our dependence on foreign oil so we are free to work to push repressive regimes to moderate and stop treating faux friends like the Saudis as true friends, which they are not, and pressure them to move to more humane treatment of women and non-believers.

2.  Continue to work for a settlement to the Israeli- Palestinian conflict. While it will not really change much in the eyes of the terrorists it perhaps will decrease support of them by the so-called moderates.

3. Spend more of our military budget on intelligence so that  we have a better chance of disrupting terrorist activities. We also need to work to secure more international funding for Interpol, which would like to play a larger role and is capable of it but simply does not have the money.

4.  Encourage Muslim groups to denounce terrorism, the treatment of women as second class citizens, and intolerance of non-believers.

5. Enlist NATO to apply pressure to Iran and Syria to stop supplying terrorist groups. I  do know if this can happen however because several of the key NATO countries are deathly afraid of  their large Muslim populations.

6. Enlist and empower people like Richard Clarke who have proven their understanding of this and unlike the Bush administration, actually LISTEN to them.

As I say,I do not have all the answers and I  would never vote for myself as president. I think however people like Joe Biden and even Hillary have a pretty good handle on this.


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studiojimi

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Re: OK, defend this.
« Reply #44 on: December 02, 2007, 12:42:37 pm »

Ashermusic wrote on Sun, 02 December 2007 09:25



1. Decrease our dependence on foreign oil so we are free to work to push repressive regimes to moderate and stop treating faux friends like the Saudis as true friends, which they are not, and pressure them to move to more humane treatment of women and non-believers.

2.  Continue to work for a settlement to the Israeli- Palestinian conflict. While it will not really change much in the eyes of the terrorists it perhaps will decrease support of them by the so-called moderates.

3. Spend more of our military budget on intelligence so that  we have a better chance of disrupting terrorist activities. We also need to work to secure more international funding for Interpol, which would like to play a larger role and is capable of it but simply does not have the money.

4.  Encourage Muslim groups to denounce terrorism, the treatment of women as second class citizens, and intolerance of non-believers.

5. Enlist NATO to apply pressure to Iran and Syria to stop supplying terrorist groups. I  do know if this can happen however because several of the key NATO countries are deathly afraid of  their large Muslim populations.

6. Enlist and empower people like Richard Clarke who have proven their understanding of this and unlike the Bush administration, actually LISTEN to them.






now THAT was a contribution.
don't know anything about thie Richard clarke but...

that all sounds positive and solution oriented.

i don't know enough about this Richard Clarke but i resonate with
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