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Author Topic: OK, defend this.  (Read 8666 times)

Jay Kadis

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Re: OK, defend this.
« Reply #15 on: December 01, 2007, 12:11:41 pm »

All religions are susceptible to manipulation because the adherents are willing to believe and act on ideologies that circumvent the need for demonstrable proof.  Then anything can become acceptable behavior.  The subjugation of women is often found in these cultures along with the demonization of outsiders.  These are simply ways of controlling behavior that have been handed down from tribal societies and still exist in many isolated places in the world.  As the isolation breaks down, the clash of ideologies results.

Demonizing Muslims and implying that liberals support their right to outrageous behavior is ridiculous, just the kind of right-wing rhetoric we hear daily from the administration in Washington.  Liberals/progressives are the first group to denounce the subjugation of women and other cultural forms of discrimination.  But liberals are not willing to resort immediately to the warlike tribal response you seem to be advocating.

malice

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Re: OK, defend this.
« Reply #16 on: December 01, 2007, 01:14:08 pm »

Ashermusic wrote on Fri, 30 November 2007 23:06

And no doubt some of you will.

Muslims are calling for the DEATH of a teacher who committed the sin of  allowing her students, after they voted to do so, to name a teddy bear Mohammed. More moderate Muslims only want her to be whipped.

No other religion in the modern era has examples of this kind of intolerance even remotely commensurate to this from its adherents.

Please spare me the Chrisitianity did this hundreds of years ago, not all Muslims are like this, and the other obvious facts that we are all aware of and acknowledge.



There is no defense for this. This shows trully how stupid obscurantism can lead, as well as lack of basic knowledge of history and tolerance, Ignorance and simple understanding of religion, you name it ...

This sad event trully shows the stupidity of humanity.

This, and your own post of course.

Peace

malice

malice

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Re: OK, defend this.
« Reply #17 on: December 01, 2007, 01:38:51 pm »

Ashermusic wrote on Sat, 01 December 2007 17:10


We cannot deal with the cultural differences if we do not acknowledge they exist and be willing to simply say that it is wrong to advocate putting a person to death for this kind of offense.



But is it ok to emprison and torture a person for no clear reason without giving him the right to get a proper defense according to our laws ?

malice

malice

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Re: OK, defend this.
« Reply #18 on: December 01, 2007, 01:40:31 pm »

Larrchild wrote on Sat, 01 December 2007 01:26



As I Dig Music put it really well, these countries have a vested interest in people-control through fear.


That would NEVER be the case in US of A Very Happy

malice

Ashermusic

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Re: OK, defend this.
« Reply #19 on: December 01, 2007, 02:41:58 pm »

malice wrote on Sat, 01 December 2007 18:38

Ashermusic wrote on Sat, 01 December 2007 17:10


We cannot deal with the cultural differences if we do not acknowledge they exist and be willing to simply say that it is wrong to advocate putting a person to death for this kind of offense.



But is it ok to emprison and torture a person for no clear reason without giving him the right to get a proper defense according to our laws ?

malice



No it is not. But it is better than killing him.
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malice

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Re: OK, defend this.
« Reply #20 on: December 01, 2007, 02:48:04 pm »

Ashermusic wrote on Sat, 01 December 2007 20:41

malice wrote on Sat, 01 December 2007 18:38

Ashermusic wrote on Sat, 01 December 2007 17:10


We cannot deal with the cultural differences if we do not acknowledge they exist and be willing to simply say that it is wrong to advocate putting a person to death for this kind of offense.



But is it ok to emprison and torture a person for no clear reason without giving him the right to get a proper defense according to our laws ?

malice



No it is not. But it is better than killing him.


1) This poor teacher has not been sentenced to death as far as I know.

2) torture being better than death is highly debatable

3) Does the expression wiping your own floor before giving lesson to anyone else rings a bell now ?

malice


3)

Ashermusic

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Re: OK, defend this.
« Reply #21 on: December 01, 2007, 02:51:34 pm »

mgod wrote on Sat, 01 December 2007 16:55

JS wrote on Fri, 30 November 2007 16:14

But then, before we Westerners take the moral high road, let us not forget that 50 years ago in certain parts of this continent an African-American could easily be lynched for any number of insignificant reasons.  As I understand it, from the late 19th century through the 60's there were literally thousands of lynchings.  Don't get me wrong, I'm not analogizing racists with "religion"...but .....

50 years ago? How long ago was it that a man in Texas was was chained to the back of pickup truck and torn in two?

Must have been those Texas Muslims did it.

Asher, it was Polish Catholics who put my family in gas chambers and ovens, while the Pope watched. It was Polish catholics who slaughtered Jews in 1946 when they returned home. Do I think this could happen again? In a heartbeat - do I think this could happen again here - yes, but this time it might be you doing it to Muslims. I don't mean that as a personal insult - this shit begins somewhere. Usually inside people. May I suggest with respect and love - please calm down. No one means you any harm. The world evolves. I'm married to an Irish/German/Swedish catholic girl. You can't force anyone to see it your way.  Lucky for me. Its another thing to appreciate about America - you live in a land where you agree with the laws. If you didn't you could go elsewhere.

How about you start a thread in which we all get to list all the things we don't like elsewhere? How about we just focus on our opinions of Africa and see how high up on the list this one is?

Some religious fanatics going apoplectic in Africa means little to me - I'm more concerned about religious fanaticism at home - condemnation of Islam being one manifestation of it in my opinion.

There - got what you were looking for?

DS



1. I am calm.

2. No there are people who do mean me harm and  you harm also because we do not share their values or religion. The difference is I acknowledge it and you dismiss it. The Jews in Germany did the same thing. And Hitler and Stalin, who killed the vast majority of people killed in the 20th century, were not Christians or Jews.

3. There is a difference between the actions of people in isolated incidents and the religious/ cultural belief in the correctness of these actions of hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions.

Slumber on, folks, slumber on.

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Ashermusic

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Re: OK, defend this.
« Reply #22 on: December 01, 2007, 02:53:19 pm »

malice wrote on Sat, 01 December 2007 19:48

Ashermusic wrote on Sat, 01 December 2007 20:41

malice wrote on Sat, 01 December 2007 18:38

Ashermusic wrote on Sat, 01 December 2007 17:10


We cannot deal with the cultural differences if we do not acknowledge they exist and be willing to simply say that it is wrong to advocate putting a person to death for this kind of offense.



But is it ok to emprison and torture a person for no clear reason without giving him the right to get a proper defense according to our laws ?

malice



No it is not. But it is better than killing him.


1) This poor teacher has not been sentenced to death as far as I know.

2) torture being better than death is highly debatable

3) Does the expression wiping your own floor before giving lesson to anyone else rings a bell now ?

malice


3)


You have no sense of proportion, do you? The torture of hundreds is identical to you to the killing of thousands?
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malice

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Re: OK, defend this.
« Reply #23 on: December 01, 2007, 03:07:36 pm »

Ashermusic wrote on Sat, 01 December 2007 20:53


You have no sense of proportion, do you? The torture of hundreds is identical to you to the killing of thousands?



Killing of thousands ?

Do you know how many innocent people, including women and children,  died in Iraq because of the war and embargo ?

It is hundred of thousands trully,  it's about half a million lifes. Human lifes.

You're not that consistent over sense of proportion yourself ...

Does torture justifies to lose your soul ?

Are you willing to defend your country's actions over this blatent negation of human rights ?

again, I find this news outrageous and indefensible, but the way you brought a judgment over a whole religion over the actions of a few iluminated idiots does not, in my book, seperate you from the lot of uneducated humanity.

Especially when your own country couldn't dismiss itself from its own barbary.

To be even more explicit : Guantanamo is NO BETTER than what is hapening to this poor teacher.

Again : wipe your own floor before giving lessons to people.

malice

Chris Ilett

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Re: OK, defend this.
« Reply #24 on: December 01, 2007, 03:20:03 pm »

Purely to calm things down a bit, and remember this is just a forum and it's very easy to misconstrue each other.

http://jesusandmo.net/strips/2007-11-30.jpg

mgod

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Re: OK, defend this.
« Reply #25 on: December 01, 2007, 03:29:20 pm »

Ashermusic wrote on Sat, 01 December 2007 11:51


1. I am calm.

Starting threads like this suggests otherwise. So does your response.

Ashermusic wrote on Sat, 01 December 2007 11:51


2. No there are people who do mean me harm and  you harm also because we do not share their values or religion. The difference is I acknowledge it and you dismiss it. The Jews in Germany did the same thing. And Hitler and Stalin, who killed the vast majority of people killed in the 20th century, were not Christians or Jews.

I'd be surprised if Hitler killed anybody personally. Somebody had to carry out those actions. Stalin was enough of a military guy that he might have done a little killing, but they both had a lot of people assisting them when the numbers got big. Probably very few of them Muslims. And if those guys weren't Christian then what were they? Do you exempt them from their heritage because of their actions, as unchristian actions? Despite the long history of Christian "conversion" and violence? And if you do, wouldn't that be an equal argument on the other side?

Your views are more dangerous to me than actions taken half way around the globe because they serve as the foundation for violence against Muslims here.

Now that's something to watch out for.

Ashermusic wrote on Sat, 01 December 2007 11:51

 
Slumber on, folks, slumber on.

Slumber on? My duty is to be awake to those trying to incite violence in and around me. Bush, Cheney and you. There are crazies everywhere. Your specific problem with Islam is your problem. OK - defend that.

DS
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Jay Kadis

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Re: OK, defend this.
« Reply #26 on: December 01, 2007, 03:29:22 pm »

Ashermusic wrote on Sat, 01 December 2007 11:51

1. I am calm.
How can you remain calm in the face of what you evidentally perceive as an existential threat to the entirety of Western civilization?
Ashermusic wrote on Sat, 01 December 2007 11:51


2. No there are people who do mean me harm and  you harm also because we do not share their values or religion. The difference is I acknowledge it and you dismiss it. The Jews in Germany did the same thing. And Hitler and Stalin, who killed the vast majority of people killed in the 20th century, were not Christians or Jews.
No one is denying the existence of the opponents of our way of life.  What we've been trying to point out to you is that they lack the numbers and the ability to carry out their wishes.  You have a vastly exaggerated estimation of their power.
Ashermusic wrote on Sat, 01 December 2007 11:51

3. There is a difference between the actions of people in isolated incidents and the religious/ cultural belief in the correctness of these actions of hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions.

Slumber on, folks, slumber on.
Sometimes it's wiser to sleep on it rather than go off half-cocked.

mgod

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Re: OK, defend this.
« Reply #27 on: December 01, 2007, 04:01:47 pm »

The last word on religious threats:
index.php/fa/6859/0/
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Larrchild

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Re: OK, defend this.
« Reply #28 on: December 01, 2007, 04:12:55 pm »

Ok, despite a bucket of lib-chum being dropped in the water here, we all universally condemn this.

Now how do we effectively protest it?
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Ashermusic

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Re: OK, defend this.
« Reply #29 on: December 01, 2007, 04:52:17 pm »

I am calm because I do believe that most of the Western world does understand the threat that radical Islam  poses to our civilization and will respond as is necessary. Historically, it takes us a while but  we  do. I even believe that it is possible that eventually large numbers of non-radical Muslims will find the courage to condemn those but I do not think it is likely.

I have already said I am against torture and think Guantanamo should be shut down. I totally agree with John McCain in his unequivocal condemnation of torture. He was tortured and understands it well, although my guess is he would say that since he is still here with a family and a good life it was  preferable to being killed. I did not, nor  would I, vote for Bush/Cheney, or anyone who supported this. So I wish you guys would stop laying that at my doorstep. Correcting what is wrong here and condemning the Islamic fanatics are not mutually exclusive tasks.

Those who carried out Hitler and Stalin's orders were not doing so because of Christian philosophy or beliefs or in its name.

The day Americans start attacking Muslims here I will be among the first to condemn it loudly. I am not inciting violence against anyone who does not support violence as a tool for killing those that merely offend their sensibilities. Far more Muslims have been killed by other Muslims than Americans.

Malice, I do not believe for a nonosecond that a country or person for that matter has to be perfect in order to condemn things that are wrong. If so, Martin Luther King, Bobby Kennedy, even Gandhi, would be disqualified and no nation on earth would ever be justified in criticizing another.

Jay, apparently you are not aware that the Cole was bombed, the WTC attacked twice, attacks on the  Spanish, the British, and, oh yeah, the French and Germans, who did not support the Iraq war. You underestimate them at your peril.

The actor Ron Silver said it best when he said, "We are not a war with Islam, we are war with Jihadistan."

When the U.S. engages in war with Iraq and in the opinion of some kills innocents wrongfully, hundreds of thousands of people in free Western civilizations protest and condemn it. The proof of one's integrity is willingness to criticize your own people when they are wrong or even to see it as wrong.

I marched against the Vietnam War because I believed it to be wrong. I have written my congressman to protest Guantanamo and Abu Grave and I vote against those that support it. Many of you do also and perhaps more

Such behavior among Muslims in the Middle East is practically non-existent and that is why they are such a threat, because if you  hold beliefs that contradict their religious/cultural values and express them, or their daughter dishonors them in their eyes, or someone names a teddy bear Mohammed, they belief that if you are sentenced to death the punishment fits the crime.

When this kind of thing happens to  this teacher, or a Fatwa is declared against Salmon Rushdie, or Al Qaeda attacks innocents, or even Muslims kill other Muslims, please folks, guide me  to the articles that report large numbers of Muslims in the Middle East condemning this and protesting and saying "This is not what Islam is about." You sometimes see Muslims in Western countries do so, though not in large numbers, but not in the Middle East.

Why? There are only two possible reasons that I can come up with:
1. They are afraid they will be killed.
2. They agree with the actions.

Once again, if you can point to me to any information or articles from any main stream Middle Eastern publications, TV stations, editorials, polls, etc. that show large numbers  of Muslims in the Middle East speaking out against Islamic extremism then I will modify my opinion and state so plainly.

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