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Author Topic: Question for Americans on Thanksgiving Day  (Read 7296 times)

mgod

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Re: Question for Americans on Thanksgiving Day
« Reply #30 on: November 25, 2007, 06:43:45 PM »

Ashermusic wrote on Sun, 25 November 2007 11:44


As  for the multiple regions concept of America, we fought a bloody civil war to prevent that and I hope that I do not live to see it. Because America IS one thing: an idea defined by the Declaration of Independence. And although we fall far short of reaching that ideal, as all human endeavors do, I believe the U.S. haas come closer to it than any powerful nation in history.

And if you had listened to the Dennis Prager show on Thanksgiving you would have heard over a 2 hour period dozens of immigrants from all over the world saying just that and that Americans do not appreciate  enough what we have here.

Mr. Asher, I was raised by a family or immigrants and concentration "camp" survivors. I really don't need to hear more immigrant stories. My oldest brother was born in a displaced person's camp in Heidenheim Germany in August of 1946. I was taught 2 things with great passion: to appreciate my life and where I am, and to be alert for the tendency that any nation can have to smugness, nationalism and down-sliding into fascism. Patriotism is typically used as the first step. Al-Qaeda can easily be used as an excuse.

I appreciate that you believe America has come closer to an ideal than any other nation in history. However, there are quite a few nations whose people could justifiably feel the same. I'm not convinced that the histories of England or France are any less noble.

DS
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mgod

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Re: Question for Americans on Thanksgiving Day
« Reply #31 on: November 25, 2007, 06:48:58 PM »

A  brief history of SAVAK, all financed by us or our parents:

http://www.fas.org/irp/world/iran/savak/index.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAVAK

http://www.ghandchi.com/14-Savak.htm

and this interesting but rather strange one from a website I find a little dubious:

http://www.hirhome.com/iraniraq/savak.htm
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maxim

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Re: Question for Americans on Thanksgiving Day
« Reply #32 on: November 25, 2007, 06:52:06 PM »

let us not forget that great britain and all its children, inc usa and australia, were not that far removed from their saxon cousins in institutionalised racism
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mgod

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Re: Question for Americans on Thanksgiving Day
« Reply #33 on: November 25, 2007, 06:54:47 PM »

And many more isms. Just ask Ann Coulter about Jews.

DS
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Daniel Farris

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Re: Question for Americans on Thanksgiving Day
« Reply #34 on: November 25, 2007, 07:11:16 PM »

mgod wrote on Sun, 25 November 2007 15:54

And many more isms. Just ask Ann Coulter about Jews.


Do I have to?

I'd prefer that no one ever ask her anything ever again.

DF
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Ashermusic

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Re: Question for Americans on Thanksgiving Day
« Reply #35 on: November 25, 2007, 07:41:38 PM »

mgod wrote on Sun, 25 November 2007 23:43

Ashermusic wrote on Sun, 25 November 2007 11:44


As  for the multiple regions concept of America, we fought a bloody civil war to prevent that and I hope that I do not live to see it. Because America IS one thing: an idea defined by the Declaration of Independence. And although we fall far short of reaching that ideal, as all human endeavors do, I believe the U.S. haas come closer to it than any powerful nation in history.

And if you had listened to the Dennis Prager show on Thanksgiving you would have heard over a 2 hour period dozens of immigrants from all over the world saying just that and that Americans do not appreciate  enough what we have here.

Mr. Asher, I was raised by a family or immigrants and concentration "camp" survivors. I really don't need to hear more immigrant stories. My oldest brother was born in a displaced person's camp in Heidenheim Germany in August of 1946. I was taught 2 things with great passion: to appreciate my life and where I am, and to be alert for the tendency that any nation can have to smugness, nationalism and down-sliding into fascism. Patriotism is typically used as the first step. Al-Qaeda can easily be used as an excuse.

I appreciate that you believe America has come closer to an ideal than any other nation in history. However, there are quite a few nations whose people could justifiably feel the same. I'm not convinced that the histories of England or France are any less noble.

DS



I agree with 90% of this although one could argue that in the British Colonial period they treated their colonies horribly, worse than the US has ever treated its territories.

And let's face it, France has not been really an important power in a long time. Their performance in both World War was, err....unimpressive.Smile


But I do think  the views of contemporary immigrants is instructive as well as the older stories of folks like your family.

Damn you guys keep sucking me back into this because it is so interesting. Cut it out and let me get back to work Smile
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maxim

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Re: Question for Americans on Thanksgiving Day
« Reply #36 on: November 25, 2007, 07:57:23 PM »

"Their performance in both World War was, err....unimpressive"

tell that to the resistance fighters...
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mgod

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Re: Question for Americans on Thanksgiving Day
« Reply #37 on: November 25, 2007, 08:12:11 PM »

Ashermusic wrote on Sun, 25 November 2007 16:41

I agree with 90% of this although one could argue that in the British Colonial period they treated their colonies horribly, worse than the US has ever treated its territories.


Probably true - nonetheless Britain has given the world great things as regards the advancement of democracy - which is particularly what I was thinking of - and they figured out the slavery issue way before "the Colonies" did.
Ashermusic wrote on Sun, 25 November 2007 16:41


And let's face it, France has not been really an important power in a long time. Their performance in both World War was, err....unimpressive.Smile

Well, we could argue that old cliche but I won't. France likewise stands very high in the history of propagating democracy, including helping the US with its own, several times. We, and the world, owe both nations a lot, notwithstanding their nasty colonialism.

BTW, it would take a very good argument to convince me that what we are doing in Iraq is much different than the British in India. How massive is our embassy? How many bases are we building? How many US companies are reliant on our presence there? Seems very traditionally colonialist to me; an ancient tradition.  

DS
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maxim

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Re: Question for Americans on Thanksgiving Day
« Reply #38 on: November 25, 2007, 08:27:08 PM »

without descartes, we would all be still living in the dark ages...
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PRobb

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Re: Question for Americans on Thanksgiving Day
« Reply #39 on: November 25, 2007, 09:27:11 PM »

Ashermusic wrote on Sun, 25 November 2007 14:44


I can only say that we see the world quite differently. I do not believe that you can deal with evil with love. However a a dog has become rabid, it must be put down and groups like Al Qaeda and the Taliban are rabid dogs. There are a large number of dead people who thought they could talk to them and reason with them.


Two responces to that.

1. That's why nobody opposed the invasion of Afghanistan.

2. What does that have to do with invading Iraq?
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PRobb

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Re: Question for Americans on Thanksgiving Day
« Reply #40 on: November 25, 2007, 09:34:02 PM »

If you take a nation's history, you have to take it whole. America (or Britain or France or a long list of countries) have a lot to be proud of and a lot to be ashamed of. The point is to learn the lessons of both. It is a dangerous form of "patriotism" to see only the good stuff.

The Declaration and Constitution are two of the greatest achievements in human history. True. They were written by slave owners. Also true.

Truth is complicated.  
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mgod

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Re: Question for Americans on Thanksgiving Day
« Reply #41 on: November 25, 2007, 09:50:09 PM »

PRobb wrote on Sun, 25 November 2007 18:34

The Declaration and Constitution are two of the greatest achievements in human history. True. They were written by slave owners. Also true.

And the richest men in the country. Would we trust Bill Gates and Warren Buffet, or the Wal-Mart family, with anything like that now?

In the department of what I believe, besides largely agreeing with Steve Martin, I believe that allowing the Taliban or Al-Qaeda to transform us into vengeful people is to hand them a victory. There was a reason someone once said turn the other cheek, love your enemy. True victory is in that. This is not an admonition for when its easy or convenient - it only has real meaning when its hard to do.

DS
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maxim

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Re: Question for Americans on Thanksgiving Day
« Reply #42 on: November 25, 2007, 09:52:22 PM »

compassion is not based on faith but on understanding...
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Ashermusic

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Re: Question for Americans on Thanksgiving Day
« Reply #43 on: November 25, 2007, 10:07:13 PM »

[quote title=mgod wrote on Mon, 26 November 2007 02:50]
PRobb wrote on Sun, 25 November 2007 18:34


In the department of what I believe, besides largely agreeing with Steve Martin, I believe that allowing the Taliban or Al-Qaeda to transform us into vengeful people is to hand them a victory. There was a reason someone once said turn the other cheek, love your enemy. True victory is in that. This is not an admonition for when its easy or convenient - it only has real meaning when its hard to do.

DS




That is one of several reasons why I am not nor could I ever be a Christian, though I respect it. I do not believe that works with these kind of people for a nanosecond.
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Ashermusic

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Re: Question for Americans on Thanksgiving Day
« Reply #44 on: November 25, 2007, 10:09:05 PM »

PRobb wrote on Mon, 26 November 2007 02:27

Ashermusic wrote on Sun, 25 November 2007 14:44


I can only say that we see the world quite differently. I do not believe that you can deal with evil with love. However a a dog has become rabid, it must be put down and groups like Al Qaeda and the Taliban are rabid dogs. There are a large number of dead people who thought they could talk to them and reason with them.


Two responces to that.

1. That's why nobody opposed the invasion of Afghanistan.

2. What does that have to do with invading Iraq?


I wasn't addressing #2 in my response.
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