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Author Topic: Question for Americans on Thanksgiving Day  (Read 7299 times)

Ashermusic

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Question for Americans on Thanksgiving Day
« on: November 22, 2007, 02:45:47 PM »

This is not to create an argument, but for my personal insight.

I was just listening to a radio program where the host asked people who had immigrated to the U.S. from other places to call and express why they were grateful to live here.

In the course of 15 minutes people from a dozen other countries including the former Soviet Union, the Netherlands, Mexico, Germany, Canada, etc. called and expressed their gratitude.

I am not an "America, Love It Or Leave It" type but I am sometimes bewildered as I see Americans post here who apparently believe:

1, The U.S is no more moral, indeed perhaps less moral a force in the world than other countries.

2. The U.S. operates largely for the benefit of the rich and more socialistic societies serve the average person and poor people better.

3. The U.S. government is no less corrupt, indeed is more corrupt, than many or most other governments.

4. The U.S. is more xenophobic and racist than many or most other societies.

And so on.

If I believed those things were true I simply could not continue to live here but would have to move to a more just society, even if it meant leaving family and friends.

So if you live here and you do believe those  things, how can you justify it?

Once again, I am not looking to pick a fight but to  get insights into how others think because I cannot fathom  it.

Happy Thanksgiving to all.
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studiojimi

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Re: Question for Americans on Thanksgiving Day
« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2007, 02:49:20 PM »

as long as ProTools and NOT Logic remains the standard of the industry....i'm grateful

wink wink!~

happy turkey day
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Barry Hufker

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Re: Question for Americans on Thanksgiving Day
« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2007, 03:10:24 PM »

Asher,

First off, Happy Thanksgiving!

As with you, I'm not looking for a fight.  This is just an "as I see it".

I would say, at least for me, the benchmark is not how do we compare to the rest of the world.  It is how do we compare from the last seven years to the previous 224.  And if we don't like what we see, then how can we change it?  Realizing there is good and bad in everything and everyone, my desire is to emphasize the best and to reduce, if not eliminate, the worst.

First, countries are not moral, people are or aren't.  That's not semantics.  Governments, organizations, institutions are not moral, only the people running them.  In my view it doesn't matter whether the U.S. is "more moral" than another country.  I don't know if morality can be measured but it can be demonstrated.  And at the moment I think our government does a poor job of demonstrating our morality.

Second, governments and companies are based on power -- economic, military, whatever.  Power always acts to preserve itself and to expand itself.  Governments and companies are necessary.  It is our job as citizens to guide and sometimes "check" the path these would take on their own if it weren't for more socially minded people.  At the moment, there is little the average U.S. citizen can do to check the abuse of power by these entities.

Third, I can't measure corruption and I don't know who can.  On some level everyone is corrupt.  At the moment it seems as tho' people in federal government seem to be particularly corrupt.  More-so, they have no shame about it.  Even more-so they are hypocritical about their actions compared to what they criticize in others.

Fourth, I don't think we are xenophobic.  Because of our position in the world, we tend to believe the world was made for us.  We are a large country that has been richly blessed for several hundred years.  Because of that we tend to think we had something to do with that blessing, rather that it being bestowed upon us as a gift.  Most other countries are smaller, with nearer proximity to each other, so other cultures, languages, etc. are encountered more often by the people in those countries.  The idea that we should have to encounter, let alone know, another language or culture is something new to us so we are resistant.  But to be true citizens of the world we need to be exposed more to the world.  And quite frankly we as a people don't like to share nor do we like to play well with others.  Our attitude is often, "I don't hafta if I don't wanna".

The U.S. is a wonderful place and I think everyone here agrees on that.  We who criticize are not criticizing the country.  We are criticizing the people who are not operating the country in the way many of us have preferred over the last couple of hundred years.  We want to see people uplifted, fed and educated.  We want them to be free, happy and peaceful.  We want the world to see us as representative of what the best can be.  Unfortunately, at the moment there are people in charge who are not interested in those goals.

It is about them we complain.

Never mistake our criticism for a lack of patriotism.  Caring about one's country enough to worry about its direction and its leaders -- and then acting upon that worry -- is one of the most patriotic things an person can do.

Happy Thanksgiving to all.  We have a lot to change in this country but thank God we have the opportunity to do it.


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Joe Black

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Re: Question for Americans on Thanksgiving Day
« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2007, 03:15:13 PM »

Why move to a just society, why not build one right here.
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Ashermusic

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Re: Question for Americans on Thanksgiving Day
« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2007, 03:17:26 PM »

Barry Hufker wrote on Thu, 22 November 2007 20:10

Asher,

First off, Happy Thanksgiving!

As with you, I'm not looking for a fight.  This is just an "as I see it".

I would say, at least for me, the benchmark is not how do we compare to the rest of the world.  It is how do we compare from the last seven years to the previous 224.  And if we don't like what we see, then how can we change it?  Realizing there is good and bad in everything and everyone, my desire is to emphasize the best and to reduce, if not eliminate, the worst.

First, countries are not moral, people are or aren't.  That's not semantics.  Governments, organizations, institutions are not moral, only the people running them.  In my view it doesn't matter whether the U.S. is "more moral" than another country.  I don't know if morality can be measured but it can be demonstrated.  And at the moment I think our government does a poor job of demonstrating our morality.

Second, governments and companies are based on power -- economic, military, whatever.  Power always acts to preserve itself and to expand itself.  Governments and companies are necessary.  It is our job as citizens to guide and sometimes "check" the path these would take on their own if it weren't for more socially minded people.  At the moment, there is little the average U.S. citizen can do to check the abuse of power by these entities.

Third, I can't measure corruption and I don't know who can.  On some level everyone is corrupt.  At the moment it seems as tho' people in federal government seem to be particularly corrupt.  More-so, they have no shame about it.  Even more-so they are hypocritical about their actions compared to what they criticize in others.

Fourth, I don't think we are xenophobic.  Because of our position in the world, we tend to believe the world was made for us.  We are a large country that has been richly blessed for several hundred years.  Because of that we tend to think we had something to do with that blessing, rather that it being bestowed upon us as a gift.  Most other countries are smaller, with nearer proximity to each other, so other cultures, languages, etc. are encountered more often by the people in those countries.  The idea that we should have to encounter, let alone know, another language or culture is something new to us so we are resistant.  But to be true citizens of the world we need to be exposed more to the world.  And quite frankly we as a people don't like to share nor do we like to play well with others.  Our attitude is often, "I don't hafta if I don't wanna".

The U.S. is a wonderful place and I think everyone here agrees on that.  We who criticize are not criticizing the country.  We are criticizing the people who are not operating the country in the way many of us have preferred over the last couple of hundred years.  We want to see people uplifted, fed and educated.  We want them to be free, happy and peaceful.  We want the world to see us as representative of what the best can be.  Unfortunately, at the moment there are people in charge who are not interested in those goals.

It is about them we complain.

Never mistake our criticism for a lack of patriotism.  Caring about one's country enough to worry about its direction and its leaders -- and then acting upon that worry -- is one of the most patriotic things an person can do.

Happy Thanksgiving to all.  We have a lot to change in this country but thank God we have the opportunity to do it.





Barry that is a wonderful, thoughtful, articulate, intelligent response and I agree with almost all  of it.

Where I disagree is that I think many Americans who post here will not agree with your statement that "The U.S. is a wonderful place and I think everyone here agrees on that."

However, I hope to see more responses here that prove that you are right and I am wrong.
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Ashermusic

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Re: Question for Americans on Thanksgiving Day
« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2007, 03:20:37 PM »

Joe Black wrote on Thu, 22 November 2007 20:15

Why move to a just society, why not build one right here.


Well, apparently according to many here the U.S. capitalist system is so corrupt that it is not possible. I am glad that you do not believe that. Neither do I. Of course, we may have divergent views on how we achieve that society.


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jwhynot

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Re: Question for Americans on Thanksgiving Day
« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2007, 03:30:47 PM »

I'm an immigrant.  I voted with my feet.

I came from a very nice country.  One with universal health care.

My old friends and family are still there.

Apart from those two things I have zero regrets coming to LA.

I don't like the way things have been recently in the US.  But the saving grace for me is the fact that, at least until now, there has always been a way back to sanity.

America seems to find its way somehow.

I certainly hope that continues to be true and that I can continue to contribute.

Thanks - have a great Turkey Day!

JW
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Ashermusic

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Re: Question for Americans on Thanksgiving Day
« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2007, 03:43:05 PM »

jwhynot wrote on Thu, 22 November 2007 20:30

I'm an immigrant.  I voted with my feet.

I came from a very nice country.  One with universal health care.

My old friends and family are still there.

Apart from those two things I have zero regrets coming to LA.

I don't like the way things have been recently in the US.  But the saving grace for me is the fact that, at least until now, there has always been a way back to sanity.

America seems to find its way somehow.

I certainly hope that continues to be true and that I can continue to contribute.

Thanks - have a great Turkey Day!

JW



Thank you for that.
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Joe Black

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Re: Question for Americans on Thanksgiving Day
« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2007, 03:50:55 PM »

Ashermusic wrote on Thu, 22 November 2007 15:20

Joe Black wrote on Thu, 22 November 2007 20:15

Why move to a just society, why not build one right here.


Well, apparently according to many here the U.S. capitalist system is so corrupt that it is not possible. I am glad that you do not believe that. Neither do I. Of course, we may have divergent views on how we achieve that society.





I can't speak for other people.

Systems of economy are only as corrupt as the people that employ them, and therefor it is required that regulations be employed to keep markets tethered. The result of that not happening can be seen in the current sub-prime mortgage debacle.

Beyond economies there are people just like you and I. While my politics may be on the far left of what stands for the center of America these days and my zero religion far from the main stream, it doesn't keep me from interacting and being friends with both conservative republicans, anarchists, pagans, witches, Christians, Jews and Muslims. Being human is about transcending differences and finding the good. Yeah, sometimes that's pretty fucking hard.

Because my family came here from Scotland over 300 years ago, fought in every major war from the French and Indian Wars to Iraq; because in the span of one generation we could look over 10,000 acres of prime central Tennessee land and call it ours to share cropping 100 acres of rock on a mountain side; because we fought on the losing side of the most just and horrible war in US history, killing our blood brothers in the hills and woods of Lookout Moutnain; because the African American product of my great-grandfather loins could join the Euro-American product of his loins in supper 120 years after his death and both raise glass to his name, John Lafayette Roberson, which he gave to both his black first born son and his white first born son;

is why I give thanks everyday that I am a free thinking, free living, freedom loving American who only wants to stand in the world community with his head high while prodding a government with sharp stick and pen to do some good in this world.

Thanksgiving....that's for pie and Charlie Brown. Eat some.
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Ashermusic

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Re: Question for Americans on Thanksgiving Day
« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2007, 03:58:40 PM »

Joe Black wrote on Thu, 22 November 2007 20:50

Ashermusic wrote on Thu, 22 November 2007 15:20

Joe Black wrote on Thu, 22 November 2007 20:15

Why move to a just society, why not build one right here.


Well, apparently according to many here the U.S. capitalist system is so corrupt that it is not possible. I am glad that you do not believe that. Neither do I. Of course, we may have divergent views on how we achieve that society.





I can't speak for other people.

Systems of economy are only as corrupt as the people that employ them, and therefor it is required that regulations be employed to keep markets tethered. The result of that not happening can be seen in the current sub-prime mortgage debacle.

Beyond economies there are people just like you and I. While my politics may be on the far left of what stands for the center of America these days and my zero religion far from the main stream, it doesn't keep me from interacting and being friends with both conservative republicans, anarchists, pagans, witches, Christians, Jews and Muslims. Being human is about transcending differences and finding the good. Yeah, sometimes that pretty fucking hard.

Because my family came here from Scotland over 300 years ago, fought in every major battle from the French and Indian Wars to Iraq; because in the span of one generation we could look over 10,000 acres of prime central Tennessee land and call it ours to share cropping 100 acres of rock on a mountain side; because we fought on the losing side of the most just and horrible war in US history, killing our blood brothers in the hills and woods of Lookout Moutnain; because the African American product of my great-grandfather loins could join the Euro-American product of his loins in supper 120 years after his death and both raise glass to his name, John Lafayette Roberson, which he gave to both his black first born son and his white first born son;

is why I give thanks everyday that I am a free thinking, free living, freedom loving American who only wants to stand in the world community with his head high while prodding a government with sharp stick and pen to do some good in this world.

Thanksgiving....that's for pie and Charlie Brown. Eat some.



Great post. I spend probably 80% of my time listening to, talking to, and reading books by folks who by and large disagree with me. You learn little from people who agree with you but occasionally you learn something from those who disagree and sometimes you may even change  your mind if you are open to it.

Happy Thanksgiving. I am beginning to be very glad I started this topic.
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studiojimi

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Re: Question for Americans on Thanksgiving Day
« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2007, 04:29:10 PM »

Asher i hope you know i was just trying to make you giggle in a very passive aggressive way!

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PookyNMR

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Re: Question for Americans on Thanksgiving Day
« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2007, 05:27:31 PM »

Ashermusic wrote on Thu, 22 November 2007 12:45

This is not to create an argument, but for my personal insight.

I was just listening to a radio program where the host asked people who had immigrated to the U.S. from other places to call and express why they were grateful to live here.

In the course of 15 minutes people from a dozen other countries including the former Soviet Union, the Netherlands, Mexico, Germany, Canada, etc. called and expressed their gratitude.

I am not an "America, Love It Or Leave It" type but I am sometimes bewildered as I see Americans post here who apparently believe:

1, The U.S is no more moral, indeed perhaps less moral a force in the world than other countries.

2. The U.S. operates largely for the benefit of the rich and more socialistic societies serve the average person and poor people better.

3. The U.S. government is no less corrupt, indeed is more corrupt, than many or most other governments.

4. The U.S. is more xenophobic and racist than many or most other societies.

And so on.

If I believed those things were true I simply could not continue to live here but would have to move to a more just society, even if it meant leaving family and friends.

So if you live here and you do believe those  things, how can you justify it?

Once again, I am not looking to pick a fight but to  get insights into how others think because I cannot fathom  it.

Happy Thanksgiving to all.


I'm an American living in Canada (now a citizen of Canada as well).

1)  I don't believe that's the case.  Travel a/o investigate other parts of the world and you may be shocked what you find out.  While I think we have a lot that we could improve, I think that in the grand scheme of things, comparatively, we're doing alright.

2)  This one I believe quite strongly, particularly since I live in a different country and have some contacts in various other nations.  I've also studied some history and looking at things from a bigger picture, a lot of the grand success that we have is from the backs of the poor and middle class.  Sometimes the only way to get some perspective is to step back out of the situation and take a look from a few other perspectives.

3)  The current administration ... oy.  If even half the reports are true, I think that the situation is dire.  There are many, many other nations that are in a worse place.  But I'm not happy with the current situation.

4)  Once again, living in a country with an official policy of multiculturalism and having contacts in many other nations, I think that while it is always getting better in the USA, there's still quite a bit of racial tension / division / and some racism.  I think that part of this boils down to the USA typically having a more homogenous idea of what the American Identity is / has been.  As we move more and more towards the global village this is and will change for us to avoid more global alienation.

I think that for many reasons, America is a great people, a great place.  There are a number of things that I would love to see changed to make a more just society.  But compared to the rest of the world, the USA has a lot of positive things for which to be thankful.


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Ashermusic

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Re: Question for Americans on Thanksgiving Day
« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2007, 05:40:48 PM »

studiojimi wrote on Thu, 22 November 2007 21:29

Asher i hope you know i was just trying to make you giggle in a very passive aggressive way!




You did.
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Barry Hufker

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Re: Question for Americans on Thanksgiving Day
« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2007, 05:44:29 PM »

Asher,

I'm glad you started this topic.  It's one more thing today to be grateful for.

It is one of the nicest discussions in a long time.

Thanks!

Barry
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Joe Black

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Re: Question for Americans on Thanksgiving Day
« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2007, 06:57:24 PM »

Yeah, man, nice topic.

There's a great article in this months Atlantic Monthly called "Why Obama Matters". While I'm not sold that Obama does matter, the subtext of the article is the US is at a critical juncture in it's recent political and cultural history. A divide that began with the Vietnam War/Nixon and is now reaching a head as the people that vied for a nations soul in that era meet face to face in a national election. The thrust of the article is that Obama transcends those boomer divisions like no other candidate can.

Dunno about that, but being someone who feels like he has a foot at the end of the boomer trail and having a lot of my world outlook defined at a tender age by the twin tragedies of MLK and RFK and Newark riots, then reinforced at a later age as my all to American history unfolded before me, I feel a palpable sort of tension between these camps and am weary and wary of being lectured on all sides.

Quite frankly, I'm tired of the divisions and tensions, real or spun. I can and have lived gracefully in all kinds of situations and feel to be a better person because of it. The 20 sumptin's I work with don't get the divisions. I'm kind of glad they don't, it gives me hope that my kids will be able to walk through the divide and come out the otherside.
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