How sad to read that classic recordings are being manipulated louder & louder for "fashion". The CD format allows more dynamic range - why not just take advantage of it then? I was so disappointed w/ virtually all of the Genesis "Definitive Remasters", ELP's Victory re-dos etc....shrill & compressed to the nines. Very sad times if this is what the music business envisions that music fans are after.
chris of soCal, SoCal, USA
Steve Hoffman doesn't hate Peter Mew - that's just ridiculous. Many of us at Steve's forum have a strong dislike of Peter Mew's mastering approach, that's all.
The members of www.stevehoffman.tv harbour no ill will towards engineers who don't master in the way Steve does but instead use digital compression etc to give CDs an "in your face" sound - we just feel that their methods make the music unpleasant to listen to.
If the engineers complaining about what we say about their work have an conviction about their mastering approach then why don't they come onto the forum and debate with us? Their unwillingness to engage in an intelligent discourse about their approach betrays the real reason they do it - because it's the easist way to get lots of work.
They have no interest in what sounds good on a decent playback system - they only care about how to make the CDs seem good initially on the worst playback systems because that's what most of their customers listen to the CDs on.
Mal, Greenwich, UK
Would have been nice if along with Steve Hoffman, Mr. Maxwell had interviewed one time Atlantic Records remastering engineer Barry Diament who mastered all of the original mid 1980s Zeppelin CD releases (except IV). Bary's Zep CDs are arguably the best of the lot.
And Mr. Mew, I'll be hanging on to all of my EMI CDs mastered before 1989 or whenever it was that your company began using noise reduction and other digital futzing. Those early CDs I have by the Hollies, Herman's Hermitts, Animals, Manfred Mann, Gerry & The Pacemakers, Cliff Richard, etc. are the best because they were probably "flat transfers". I can hear everything as it was originally intended, tape hiss and all.
Mike Richards, Calgary, Canadda
Thanks for an insightful article. I don't agree with some statements, but it was a fair appraisal of a substantial cultural change that I find alarming. With a slew of substantially louder (and otherwise tinkered-with) remasters, every engineer guilty of complying to executive demands for ADDITIONAL VOLUME (or bringing it about himself) is affecting a change in listening habits that might well be irreversible. It's akin to adding a layer of dayglo to a famous painting ... just to go with the fashion.
The result of the "LOUDNESS" wars is a strict conditioning of casual listeners - and especially a whole young generation - in a way that will leave them to drool only when the bell rings MUCH LOUDER and basically not feeling hunger when it rings the way it was intended to ring.
You can see the result in a mass of customers' comments on Amazon: LOUD is already better, and everything else, especially if it comes close to a well-recorded original, sounds "boring."
deus, KA, Germany
I love the practicality of cd but love the sound of vynl ..so am self condemmed to spending fortunes on hi end cd and d2a systems to be able to buy cd's and listen to Vynl sound. The variety of cardigans talkling abt "the excellent production on that album" are, apart fm being pratts, missing the point - i dont want to "hear" the production. Go back to the pressings of the Doors, Jimi Hendrix, Miles Davis and it seems to me that you can hear the instruments warts and all.. of course thats assuming the band want to sound real... or are playing instruments.. or are in the room, town or country as each other.
zugerman, Zurich, Switzerland
Thanks for posting an interesting and informative article. Too bad you couldn't interview Mr. Hoffman, because he would have corrected some of your generalizations about his work. I'd suggest those who are not familiar with Mr. Hoffman's work read this interview: http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=59070
Keith, Columbus, Ohio, USA
An interesting read. Not that I've heard this release, but the trend towards louder and louder cd's is an alarming one!!
It damages the sound compared to how it was recorded, and when the sound ends up being clipped so much that it is clearly audible (as can be heard in several modern masterings) you are not improving the sound in the slightest... it seems mastering engineers are simply following instruction as best they can to make the new release louder than everybody else's to make more impact and drive sales. That's business, but it IS damaging the music, and people have begun to notice this.
Don't get me started on digital noise reduction too, another trick in the re-mastering engineers toolbox that is apparently so often unnecessarily used as well.
Jon, London
Jon, London, UK
It was a sad day when Philips managed to sideline DAT, it is a far better format for music than the CD can ever be.
depressed consumer, wiht no choice, Abu Dhabi, U.A.E.
Xmas is coming ... sounds like a good reason to milk the Led Zep gravy train yet again ... tweak a few knobs and hey presto, it's the Mothership! A nice boost to the Zeppelin pension fund.
Steve, Warwick,
What I want when I listen to music is to feel like I am sitting in the mixing room not just to the main musicians but the backing players and singers, too. I want the music to come alive for me, I want to feel why they made that particular piece of music and why they became musicians.
Christopher Hobe Morrison, Pine Bush, Ulster County, NY, USA
You can
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« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2007, 06:25:02 PM »
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« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2007, 07:58:52 PM »
Roger that distress call, Nassau... -.. --- / -. --- - / .-- .- .. - / ..-. --- .-. / .... . .-.. .--. / --.. . .--. .--. . .-.. .. -. / --- ...- . .-. / .-.. .. -.- . / .-.. . .- -.. / -... .- .-.. --- --- -. / --- ...- . .-.
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« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2007, 10:27:30 PM »
I go through a major Zep phase every few years.
I have the new Mothership, the George Marino remasters, some old cd releases, a copy of the recent Grundman-cut vinyl of their 4th album, and a bunch of old LP's here in the studio.
I have to mostly agree with Peter Mew. The vinyl is great . Big and clean but missing some tone of the older LP's. The remasters are great. More/different tone than Grundman and a bit softer.
I guess all great in their own way but sound different - down to respective taste/signal paths of their Re-ME's, I guess?
I think the Remasters capture the flavour of the old vinyl best. As good and as far as 16 bits can go? I'd like to work with George Marino at least one before he retires.
The Mothership is louder, more compressed and while I'm all for that I don't like this release as much...a bit hard sounding for me. Maybe I'm just getting burned out on the tunes even if Jimmy Page isn't.
What a thankless job remastering famous music must be?
Buy the one with the DVD. The live footage is raw!
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« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2007, 03:56:11 PM »
I find that most listening tests against "louder" files are usually bullshit. On playback, there's rarely adjustment to ensure that the RMS levels are the same. Only the peak levels are the same. Of course the one with the louder RMS levels are going to seem better sounding, because they are louder! Adjust the playback so that the RMS is consistent, and that's not always the case.
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studio infoThey say the heart of Rock & Roll is still beating, which is amazing if you consider all the blow it's done over the years. "The Internet enables pompous blowhards to interact with other pompous blowhards in a big circle jerk of pomposity." - Bill Maher "The negative aspects of this business, not only will continue to prevail, but will continue to accelerate in madness. Conditions aren't going to get better, because the economics of rock and roll are getting closer and closer to the economics of Big Business America." - Bill Graham
« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2007, 04:51:16 PM »
God I love this quote. What's that expression, a little bit of knowledge can be a very dangerous thing.... zmix wrote on Fri, 16 November 2007 23:04 | Reader's Comments:Quote: | It was a sad day when Philips managed to sideline DAT, it is a far better format for music than the CD can ever be. ,
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I hate DAT. I'm happy to say I haven't turned my DAT machine on for several years now.... PB
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« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2007, 05:55:15 PM »
Peter Beckmann wrote on Mon, 19 November 2007 16:51 | I hate DAT. I'm happy to say I haven't turned my DAT machine on for several years now....
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So Peter, what do you have against "tape?"
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« Reply #8 on: November 19, 2007, 08:53:30 PM »
zmix wrote on Fri, 16 November 2007 16:58 | Roger that distress call, Nassau...
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Rick Welin - Clark Drive Studios http://www.myspace.com/clarkdrivestudiosIve done stuff I'm not proud of.. and the stuff I am proud of is disgusting ~ Moe Sizlack "There is no crisis in energy, the crisis is in imagination" ~ Buckminster Fuller
« Reply #9 on: November 20, 2007, 05:21:30 AM »
compasspnt wrote on Mon, 19 November 2007 22:55 |
Peter Beckmann wrote on Mon, 19 November 2007 16:51 | I hate DAT. I'm happy to say I haven't turned my DAT machine on for several years now....
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So Peter, what do you have against "tape?"
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Surely there's no need any more. Can't Waves make us a tape plugin with all those great flavours: DAT, DA88, ADAT,
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« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2007, 12:25:24 AM »
Mew would have made them louder because of "fashion."
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« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2007, 05:06:57 PM »
they seek him here, they seek him there he makes your speakers move the air
he'll guarantee your CDs will be louder than the rest 'cuz he's a dedicated follower of fashion
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studio infoThey say the heart of Rock & Roll is still beating, which is amazing if you consider all the blow it's done over the years. "The Internet enables pompous blowhards to interact with other pompous blowhards in a big circle jerk of pomposity." - Bill Maher "The negative aspects of this business, not only will continue to prevail, but will continue to accelerate in madness. Conditions aren't going to get better, because the economics of rock and roll are getting closer and closer to the economics of Big Business America." - Bill Graham
« Reply #12 on: November 27, 2007, 10:14:08 AM »
rankus wrote on Mon, 19 November 2007 19:53 |
zmix wrote on Fri, 16 November 2007 16:58 | Roger that distress call, Nassau...
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Man.......I had to buy a dictionary when I first started hanging out here........now I have to learn Morse code? Rick
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If you think you're finished at the dance, you are quitting too soon. William Wittman
you need the fat to protect the stomach lining against alcohol, and the alcohol to cut through the fat in the bloodstream so, it's beer & doughnuts for me. Maxim
« Reply #13 on: November 27, 2007, 11:38:38 AM »
Phil Demetro wrote on Fri, 16 November 2007 21:27 | I have the new Mothership, the George Marino remasters, some old cd releases, a copy of the recent Grundman-cut vinyl of their 4th album, and a bunch of old LP's here in the studio.
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Yo Phil, I love what GM did with the Led Zep II remaster. Haven't heard the other CDs. Got the original LPs tho'. Summer of '69... I bought the first Led Zep LP along with Hendrix' "Smash Hits", Cream's "Wheels of Fire" & Dylan's "Nashville Skyline" while beach bumming on Galveston Island. My brain hasn't been the same since. p.s. Happy Birthday to Jimi ! He woulda been 65 today.
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« Reply #14 on: November 27, 2007, 12:34:27 PM »
Jerry Tubb wrote on Tue, 27 November 2007 11:38 |
Phil Demetro wrote on Fri, 16 November 2007 21:27 | I have the new Mothership, the George Marino remasters, some old cd releases, a copy of the recent Grundman-cut vinyl of their 4th album, and a bunch of old LP's here in the studio.
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Yo Phil, I love what GM did with the Led Zep II remaster.
Haven't heard the other CDs. Got the original LPs tho'.
Summer of '69... I bought the first Led Zep LP along with Hendrix' "Smash Hits", Cream's "Wheels of Fire" & Dylan's "Nashville Skyline" while beach bumming on Galveston Island. My brain hasn't been the same since.
p.s. Happy Birthday to Jimi ! He woulda been 65 today.
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Jerry, sounds like you've come through the golden era of the business! I have the LZ remasters "box" - an expensive but really nice put together of all their material. I don't know if it's still available? Maybe? I think George was/still is the best for remastering a lot of these acts as he did many of the originals first time around. George seems to have the respect from a lot of musicians and even from many of the engineers inside Sterling. Tom Coyne once gave me an LP of the Crawlers "Snake, Rattle & Roll" (1978) and said "Here have this..this is what made me a George Marino fan" . Pretty cool to have that kind of respect. Still digging those over the new Mothership.
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« Reply #15 on: November 27, 2007, 07:25:17 PM »
Checking out Mothership here in the studio and it sounds "small" and severely lacking bottom "oomf" - to me, definitely worse than even the very first CD issues. Back to Marino's remasters.. The first note on Zep II's The Lemon Song immediately sounds bigger and more sustained. Return of the Kick Drum and you can again lose yourself in Jones's bass part alone. -17dB rms vs Mothership's -10 rms - so what.
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« Reply #16 on: November 27, 2007, 08:49:03 PM »
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« Reply #17 on: November 28, 2007, 01:04:04 PM »
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« Reply #18 on: December 03, 2007, 12:54:16 PM »
I haven't listened to all the remasters but I have all the vinyl records and have to say when I bought Stairway to Heaven on cd a few years ago I was greatly disapointed AND PISSED off! At the end of the song the electric guitar riff under "and as we wind on down the road etc" is barely discernable whereas on the vinyl it is rocking the whole section to the end of the song. What is that??!! Did some ego-I-think-I-am-God engineer REMIX it? or is that something that happened in mastering.... LAME! After that I decided to keep listening to my records so as not to get angry at people I don't know....nothing is sacred...
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« Reply #19 on: December 10, 2007, 05:53:01 PM »
.. / .-.. --- ...- . / - .... .. ... / - .... .-. . .- -.. / ... --- / -- ..- -.-. .... This place is the best, you guys crack me up. I bought Mothership but haven't gotten to sit down for a good listen yet. Admittantly, I know almost nothing about the mastering game. But my question is, the original will always be there, right? Does it really matter how many times the "good old stuff" gets remastered? I'm not being sarcastic, I really want to know. Please be merciful. Jessica
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