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[PRobb]

RPhilbeck wrote on Wed, 14 November 2007 14:55

Point taken, but it was a different era, different enemy, and very different motives.  Allah commands far more allegiance than the Furor ever did.  Comparisons to past conflicts are futile.  They just don't relate.

Agreed. How do you threaten a suicide bomber with death?

[rphilbeck]

PRobb wrote on Wed, 14 November 2007 15:05

RPhilbeck wrote on Wed, 14 November 2007 14:55 Point taken, but it was a different era, different enemy, and very different motives.  Allah commands far more allegiance than the Furor ever did.  Comparisons to past conflicts are futile.  They just don't relate. Agreed. How do you threaten a suicide bomber with death?

Right.  You can't.  Killing them does no good.  You just have to torment them until they give up the whereabouts of other suicide bombers.  It's all just ugly business.  

[Jay Kadis]

RPhilbeck wrote on Wed, 14 November 2007 11:35

Jay Kadis wrote on Wed, 14 November 2007 14:33   It is also possible the threat of terrorism has been highly exaggerated. Have you been living under a rock for the past 30 years?

It is possible the view from under my rock is better than the view you get from FOX News.

The Communists under my bed have morphed into terrorists.

[jwhynot]

Threatening a suicide bomber?

Asking him/her questions?  Using coercion?

Where do you think these people come from?

Are they making the decisions?  Do they know the strategy?

Aren't we talking about torturing footsoldiers?  Cannon-fodder?

Fighting repugnance with repugnance?  I guess it takes all kinds...

Problem #1 with torture:  It is repugnant for any civilized person to participate.  No matter what your politics or emotional state.  No matter where you look for your wisdom.  It's a sin, basically.

Problem #2:  It doesn't work.  It has never worked.  It will never work.

Problem #3:  The predictable result of engaging in coercion and torture is an increased dynamism in your enemies.  Even if you hate someone to the utmost, you stray directly into insanity the minute you apply your emotional response to your own detriment.  If you take what you hate and make it bigger what do you gain?

Torture is carried out by the USA only because people are encouraged to fear and hate.  Would we do torture, even anything approaching torture, if we didn't have a bunch of fearful citizens and hateful politicians?  No way.

Now if you're an enemy of the USA, does the fact that Americans are now manifesting their fears in the form of foreign policy make you more or less likely to hate us?  Do we appear weaker or stronger by using the tactics of a fearful combatant?  Do we discourage further violent action?  Or open the door to it?

Do people not realize that an essential component for the recruiters of suicide bombers is a sense of oppression and hopelessness, coupled with an available distant agent that can be blamed?

You torture a bomber or would-be bomber and you strongly reinforce the beliefs that created him or her in the first place.

Those who would recruit these people... now that's different.  Those guys in the soft robes and nice hats are far from the flying shrapnel.  But their political influence is directly proportional to the perception among their followers that the USA is causing them, the followers, all their personal problems.

I think we'd get better results, frankly, from bombing terrorists with food than with explosives.

Carry on.

JW

[ScotcH]

RPhilbeck wrote on Wed, 14 November 2007 15:12

Right.  You can't.  Killing them does no good.  You just have to torment them until they give up the whereabouts of other suicide bombers.  It's all just ugly business.

Just make them draw comics of Allah or Muhamed or some other fictitious characters getting ass raped by jesus, or santa claus, or the tooth fairy or something.  That'll make them spill their secrets.

[PRobb]

RPhilbeck wrote on Wed, 14 November 2007 15:12

PRobb wrote on Wed, 14 November 2007 15:05 RPhilbeck wrote on Wed, 14 November 2007 14:55 Point taken, but it was a different era, different enemy, and very different motives.  Allah commands far more allegiance than the Furor ever did.  Comparisons to past conflicts are futile.  They just don't relate. Agreed. How do you threaten a suicide bomber with death? Right.  You can't.  Killing them does no good.  You just have to torment them until they give up the whereabouts of other suicide bombers.  It's all just ugly business.

We can't win by sinking to the level of our enemies.

And if we become what we're supposed to be fighting, then what are we fighting for?

[Tidewater]

Again: waterboarding works. It works, it works, it works.

It worked on Kalid Sheik Mohammed. It will work on Bin Laden.

It's terrifying.. a plus.

We can either break them now, or later, you can all face Mecca, or stand aside while people like me unleash Hell on all of them. They are cancer. They are fascist animals.

I'd rather kill them all, than lose one William Wittman.

Fuck them.

God save us.


M

[maxdimario]

the government is full of criminals..

and the citizens give them money to do as they care..

who is responsible?

[rankus]

maxdimario wrote on Wed, 14 November 2007 14:29

the government is full of criminals..

The Italian government?

[jwhynot]

Quote:

people like me unleash Hell on all of them.

???????

Really Miles?  You will personally kill the terrorists?

Does that mean you have to put your shoes on and leave the apartment?

If so, thanks from the soft, yielding liberal left.

JW

[Tidewater]

Absolutely. I would feel honored to save civilization, by most means technological.

I am for bringing all the armed services home, and exporting weapons of mass destruction to the next sob that flinches.

They want. We have. Let's share.

If they think we won't use the shit, what good is it?

Showdown. Quick draw wins, there isn't a second place, nary a one. If they only sampled our fury, they'd draw back. Just a taste, a proof.

You got kids?

Not me.

I could proudly set all this straight, and nobody would have to feel guilty.
Pretty tough.. sounds strong.. all true. Better everyone like them, than a single man like you.


M

[PRobb]

Tidewater wrote on Wed, 14 November 2007 17:13

Again: waterboarding works. It works, it works, it works. M

Repetition doesn't make it true. Torture remains a very unreliable method of getting useful information. It's why confessions under torture obtained are useless.  At some point, the victim will say anything to make it stop.

[mgod]

Tidewater wrote on Wed, 14 November 2007 17:46

I could proudly set all this straight, and nobody would have to feel guilty. Pretty tough.. sounds strong.. all true. M

Oh, never mind. You said it all yourself.

DS

[Tidewater]

Yes, anything. Maybe even truth. It's VERY effective. Look up KSM.

What a tough guy, indoctrinating people to die. Consider him plucked, and fucked.

These aren't just people who 'look like A-rabs'; they are captured operatives of a known network of retarded little Hitlers, who kill more people than drunk driving, and teen smoking combined. They cook over fire, and destroy lower Manhattan, yet  they purchase no carbon credits.

Anyways, when you all finally decide you need someone who isn't afraid of being the guy who turned the thing around... harshly..

PM me.


M

[maxdimario]

rankus wrote on Thu, 15 November 2007 00:42

maxdimario wrote on Wed, 14 November 2007 14:29 the government is full of criminals.. The Italian government?

..Ah! but here people avoid paing taxes


...nope I am talking about the US government breaking laws all the time.. including murder.