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Author Topic: WASH Version 1 (AKA wump 14)  (Read 23638 times)

aivoryuk

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Re: WASH Version 1 (was new wump anyone??)
« Reply #30 on: November 11, 2007, 05:22:22 AM »

masterhse wrote on Sat, 10 November 2007 17:53


Do you think that it might be a good idea to have anonymous submissions rather than names attached? If so, I can possibly accept the submissions via yousendit or maybe a form, along with procedure, gear etc. That way the person submitting will know which is theirs without knowing who created the others.

Before we start submissions though I would like to know what your personal sonic goals are for this mix and your approach in achieving it. What does the final "master" sound like in your head?


I don't mind regarding the name or anon there are pros and cons for each.
When and where are you wanting this submitted to Brads servr as discussed or to you through you send it.

One thing I am counting on is that as there are only 10 people, we should get a full set of comments as there were other people that wanted to join in so it would be unfair if that doesn't happen.

With out revealing my technique, my own goals were to tighten up the sonic performance of the mix and to get it moving and open it up.

I had in mind like a Rolling Stones/Keith Richards sound in my head so was aiming towards something like that but without taking the mix somewhere it can't go.
Its been very challeging this one and I'm very eager to hear other peoples take on this.
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ATOR

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Re: WASH Version 1 (was new wump anyone??)
« Reply #31 on: November 11, 2007, 08:05:13 AM »

My biggest problem with the mix is the lack of separation. I punched some holes in the freq spectrum but the only way to really improve separation would be in remixing.

I absolutely prefer named entries. So did most of us when we did a poll last wump.

Just to keep things simple shall we call this wump 14? It'll be easier to search the forum for afterwards instead of renaming every new online mastering challenge to a wimp, womp, wump or a wash thing.

If we stick to the way the wump has formed itself after 13 episodes we won't have to reinvent the wheel every time we begin a new one.

That would be:
- format 16bit 44.1kHz
- name: WUMPxx-yourname.wav
- upload the day of the deadline
- the one who submits the mix sets the deadline, usually about 10 days and gives client requests.

Upload to Brads server in the WUMPxx folder:
ftp://euphonicmasters.com
username: wump@euphonicmasters.com
password: REP

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Re: WASH Version 1 (was new wump anyone??)
« Reply #32 on: November 11, 2007, 09:18:43 AM »

ATOR wrote on Sun, 11 November 2007 07:05

My biggest problem with the mix is the lack of separation. I punched some holes in the freq spectrum but the only way to really improve separation would be in remixing.


I agree also. Please note that these are observations from the point of identification not criticism:

Snare bottom included in opening smack makes it less effective as an opening whack !
Guitars are not panned the same adding to lack of space. Kick off to the side thus not going to get the same punch.
Due to a lot coming front and center, the vocals now come into the picture right along with the instruments.

There is so much fighting for the same space.

Given this mix, there will be some EQ'ing to try to clear it up a bit, and slight compression to mabey get some life into it, but will have to be careful since everything is so tightly packed.

Great project however !

Also, I don't mind having my name tied to the file. I have no problem with it, wether my entry works or doesn't work. I am here to learn and do not mind any criticism of my work. I respect al of your comments and experience.

Take Care,
Gene
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masterhse

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Re: WASH Version 1 (was new wump anyone??)
« Reply #33 on: November 11, 2007, 12:32:03 PM »

Thank you for the comments so far.

Just a note, the students of the class are tuned into this thread and it serves as a great learning experience for them as well as budding MEs in general. For this I'm most appreciative to the contributors to this thread. I was hoping that this could be a little different than other WUMPs in that it might be geared more to this audience rather than what we have done in the past, hence some of my more fundamental questions. It may even be thought provoking for some of the more seasoned.

To this point I think that it might be helpful to hear some of the work in progress, and reasoning behind getting to that point. When mastering do you try to "peel off" layers of issues as you are proceeding or do you take a more gestalt approach? For example, do you apply noise reduction first and listen to the results before moving forward, or do you feel that noise reduction and EQ settings need to be done simultaneously for the best result? If the former, it would be nice to hear how successful the noise reduction as a standalone process.

Some other questions that I think may be relevant:

  • Is it possible to master with headphones only? Advantages and disadvantages.
  • Would a BBE or Exciter help in this situation?
  • Could a combination of M/S processing and delay help in repositioning the instruments in the mix?
  • As MEs we are told to "honor the mixers intentions", are there conditions where this is not the case?
  • Another general rule of thumb for mastering is to maintain as transparent a path as possible, why would we then intentionally color a mix, and where in the processing chain should this be done if at all? At the start, or after we've heard the "naked" mix?

The general consensus seems to be a non-anonymous submission, let's post as usual, though I may copy the files to the WASH page to help organize later if everyone is OK with that.

Best,
Tom
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Tom Volpicelli
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bruno putzeys

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Re: WASH Version 1 (was new wump anyone??)
« Reply #34 on: November 11, 2007, 02:03:10 PM »

I apologise for dropping in here as a non-player. I'm not an ME but I just downloaded the file to toy with in the privacy of my home. So feel free to ignore me if I talk poop Smile
masterhse wrote on Sun, 11 November 2007 18:32

Is it possible to master with headphones only? Advantages and disadvantages.

I find that headphones help picking out certain EQ problems that easily get lost on speakers and vice versa. The 450Hz thing jumped out of my speakers but is almost unnoticeable on cans, but some other stuff was much clearer on HP. Headphones only is dangerous because there is no universally accepted definition of a flat frequency response for a device that so intimately couples with the ear canal. The problem isn't achieving flatness, it's knowing what to make flat.
masterhse wrote on Sun, 11 November 2007 18:32

Could a combination of M/S processing and delay help in repositioning the instruments in the mix?

It helps. Very much. Not in repositioning instruments in the mix but the piano gets some of its lost harmonics back and the bits with the doubled up vocals become clearer. Maybe too obvious really.
masterhse wrote on Sun, 11 November 2007 18:32

As MEs we are told to "honor the mixers intentions", are there conditions where this is not the case?

My personal take would be honoring the band's intentions. It's their album, not the mixer's.
masterhse wrote on Sun, 11 November 2007 18:32

Another general rule of thumb for mastering is to maintain as transparent a path as possible, why would we then intentionally color a mix, and where in the processing chain should this be done if at all? At the start, or after we've heard the "naked" mix?

How would you define transparency? As an equipment designer I take "transparency" to mean "no audible difference between the input and the output". Audiophiles interpret the term as meaning "having a barrage of microdetail thrown at you during playback". Or do you mean minimalism? Least amount of analogue processing?
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masterhse

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Re: WASH Version 1 (AKA wump 14?)
« Reply #35 on: November 11, 2007, 04:06:03 PM »

Comments are welcome from both participants and non-participants.

I would define transparency as you have as a designer.
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Phillip Graham

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Re: WASH Version 1 (was new wump anyone??)
« Reply #36 on: November 11, 2007, 11:53:28 PM »

masterhse wrote on Sun, 11 November 2007 12:32

Thank you for the comments so far.

To this point I think that it might be helpful to hear some of the work in progress, and reasoning behind getting to that point.



Mine file is done, and in the root of Brad's Server as "WUMP14-pgraham.wav" as there is no WUMP14 file folder yet.

Much more detail later, but basic methodology.

1.  Clean up intro and outro fades.
2.  Noise Reduction (intro only)
3.  Split Mid/Side
4.  Linear phase eq mid and side (different eqs)
5.  Multiband on mid for bass and vocal leveling
5a. Basic comp on side
6.  Transient designer on mid
7.  Reverb on mid and side (different verbs)
8.  Combine mid/side
9.  Tube comp plugin
10. Buss comp plugin
11. Tiny touch of multiband
12. Shaping eq (linear phase)
13. Two instances of same limiter (a little each time).
14. Dither

Quote:


[*]Is it possible to master with headphones only? Advantages and disadvantages.



The posted track is 90% headphones, $30 ones from Best Buy.  Track was double checked on Dell PC speakers and my truck's in doors...

Headphones are good for detail, but everything else is a disadvantage, things like verb levels, and stereo width, I mostly set with my gut.

Quote:


[*]Could a combination of M/S processing and delay help in repositioning the instruments in the mix?



Absolutely M/S, and an amazing new plugin with adobe audition 3.0 called "Auto Align Phase" which works way better than it should have any right to.

Quote:


[*]As MEs we are told to "honor the mixers intentions", are there conditions where this is not the case?


This mix said "Rolling Stones in a bar" to me, so I intentionally made it a little dirtier, and used a convolution reverb of a smallish room.

Quote:


[*]Another general rule of thumb for mastering is to maintain as transparent a path as possible, why would we then intentionally color a mix, and where in the processing chain should this be done if at all? At the start, or after we've heard the "naked" mix?



Given this is a fun break from school for me, I do everything in the box.  My mix was done entirely in Adobe Audition 3.0.  All the plugins used are included and/or freeware on the internet.  I have fiddled with them alot, and know when they have reached their limits.  I find I have to use a little of everything, typically.

Quote:


The general consensus seems to be a non-anonymous submission, let's post as usual, though I may copy the files to the WASH page to help organize later if everyone is OK with that.



Fine by me.  Love to see if mine holds up against the better gear submissions.  Again, its already posted as "WUMP14-pgraham.wav"
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bruno putzeys

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Re: WASH Version 1 (AKA wump 14?)
« Reply #37 on: November 12, 2007, 02:52:30 AM »

masterhse wrote on Sun, 11 November 2007 22:06

I would define transparency as you have as a designer.

In that case I'd say that the rule of the maximally transparent signal path is only meaningful for utilitarian boxes like amps and converters. For EQ's and compressors this definition fails as soon as you touch any control. For gear that intentionally or inevitably adds distortion (e.g. transformer coupled stuff or tube gear) it's pointless altogether. From that perspective the rule of the maximally transparent chain makes a good guideline only for setting up the core signal path. This way you know that, should the Perfect Mix Tape ever arrive, you can master it with no loss of quality. To take transparency as a guideline for actual mastering however, reduces the ME to little more than a tape op.

Put in this context I don't see the desire for a potentially transparent signal path as conflicting with the need for heavy butchery that mixes like the washme file pose. The perfect signal chain would be one that allows for exactly as much transparency as the input signal warrants.
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masterhse

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Re: WASH Version 1 (AKA wump 14?)
« Reply #38 on: November 12, 2007, 09:21:23 AM »

Bruno Putzeys wrote on Mon, 12 November 2007 02:52

 The perfect signal chain would be one that allows for exactly as much transparency as the input signal warrants.


Sums things up nicely IMHO.

If you are intentionally adding color (versus corrective EQ and compression) does it make sense to not have any unintentional "color" added before or after the process?  Would it be better to hear things in the original (or corrected) form as transparent as possible so that you can determine and apply the precise color the mix needs, or since you are intentionally coloring the mix it wouldn't matter anyway?
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bruno putzeys

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Re: WASH Version 1 (AKA wump 14?)
« Reply #39 on: November 12, 2007, 10:12:35 AM »

I was quietly hoping I had managed to skirt around that one Embarassed
It's really difficult ascertain if an EQ is audibly transparent apart from modifying the frequency response. What kind of listening test could be devised to prove this? With analogue EQ's I'd guess that the closest you can get to such a test is using two different EQ's, set to mirror-image responses. If the two strung together make a transparent chain, chances are that both are beyond suspicion. With two identical EQ's you're never entirely sure if various colouration mechanisms don't happen to mirror as well (unlikely but not impossible - depends on the design). I doubt that there are any EQ's out there that would pass a serious transparency test like that, let alone two different ones.

With digital EQ's things are a bit simpler because there aren't any hard-to-measure sources of colouration such as passives etc. If the design is provably free of non-random rounding errors and the like, the only thing it does is modify the frequency response and add a negligible amount of random noise.

Whether anyone should select a particular EQ for the additional colouration it produces is a "whatever floats your boat" kind of question. Personally I like to keep things neatly separate because I feel uneasy changing several variables at once without full control over each one. So if maximum transparency and control is the watchword, I'd reply "all digital". Nevertheless I'm wary of "ideology audio", both from the esoteric analogue camp and from the ultra-objectivist camp (my own). If someone manages to breathe a dead mix to life with an odd-ball analogue EQ and a few knob tweaks while someone else with a perfect digital rig takes all day to get close to that, the analogue guy wins. The state of digital equipment user interfaces alone makes such a scenario quite likely.
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escape

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Re: WASH Version 1 (was new wump anyone??)
« Reply #40 on: November 12, 2007, 10:53:55 AM »

For example, do you apply noise reduction first and listen to the results before moving forward, or do you feel that noise reduction and EQ settings need to be done simultaneously for the best result?

I always configure the noise reduction first.  In my experience, if NR is done later in the chain, it will mess with everything you have done to tune the mix into sounding better.  NR in more extreme settings, if you can get away with it, especially.  
NR can change the spectral balance, the dynamics, the inter-relationships of phase form the different spectra in a non-productive way.  When I isolate it as the first thing in the chain, I can then correct later what might have been affected that was out-of-bounds (artefacts).


Is it possible to master with headphones only? Advantages and disadvantages.

Possible? Yes.
Recommended? Definitely NOT.

Headphones are a valuable tool in mastering, but to do everything with headphones as monitors brings disaster.

Headphones are used to help zero in on frequencies that are very thin and surgical.
They are helpful in detecting artefacts from digital processing especially.
Also, briefly, as a last check to the final cut before pressing.

Sometimes there are details that can only be revealed by a pair of phones, but they will not give you any natural feel for the lower end of the spectrum, and your overall frequency balance will suffer if you make too many of your decisions with only phones.

Would a BBE or Exciter help in this situation?

Sometimes, if used sparingly, they can help with some phase issues. But not always.  BBE and Aphex are very different types of exciters. Briefly put, BBE is fooling around with the phase relationships in 3 discrete bands.  Aphex is extending the highs with harmonics derived from the original signal.

Alot of practice needs to be had with these devices before you can go on deciding right away whether what you have can benefit from it's treatment.

Sometimes it can make a HUGE difference with what seems to be impossibly small differences in settings.  But, the same could be said for EQ, compression, ...

This is why the older, phasier EQ boxes, the Pultec for instance, are taken by me as more of an excitation process than pure EQ.
If I want pure frequency domain adjustments I'll reach for any of the dozen linear phase EQs out there.  With a box like the Pultec, I'm not really tuning in on frequencies (well yes, I am, but for a different reason), I'm choosing the best place in the frequency domain to change the phase in relation to the time domain in desirable ways. (which often has the  nice side effect of boosting and/or cutting certain frequencies in an aesthetically pleasing way that can be described as "psycho-acoustic").

Now, the Pultec is much longer to learn in this way, but it can be used in many more situations because it can be more delicately tuned than any of these new-wave exciters.

I do own an SPL Tube Vitalizer, and when this is used in the right situation the results can be stunning.


Could a combination of M/S processing and delay help in repositioning the instruments in the mix?


Yes.  Unfortunately the point of diminishing returns is not far from where you start with it.  If you're lucky it will get you not even half way there.  Better to do a remix then to pay for long hours of digging around with m/s EQ to remix it for you.  
At it's best, it still may sound artificial.  

Remix it.


As MEs we are told to "honor the mixers intentions", are there conditions where this is not the case?

No.

Communication is essential.

Once things have been explained to whoever may be in charge of making these types of decisions (it may be the band, or the executive producer rather than the mixing engineer's), it will be up to them to decide where they want to go with THEIR sound.

You are only the pilot, they should know where they want to go.  Once they've heard some options from you, you take them where they ultimately want to go.


Another general rule of thumb for mastering is to maintain as transparent a path as possible, why would we then intentionally color a mix, and where in the processing chain should this be done if at all? At the start, or after we've heard the "naked" mix?


Coloration is mainly done with different balances of several types of harmonic distortion and/or types of phase shifts.  These distortions can be pleasing when used in proper amounts with the right kind of material.  They add a nuance that can only be heard when you are very concentrated on listening.  Sometimes they help bring out details to the surface that may have been overlooked otherwise.  It is a type of "Hi-Lighting".

I prefer to have it as one of the last steps in mastering.  If I put it first, everything I do subsequently will effect that balance and may steer the sound somewhere undesirable.

By saving it for last, the ultimate control of the final color of the sound is left to me.  I usually achieve this with the SPL box and sometimes the Cranesong HEDD converter, although it is often not needed because of the other gear that I use.

Because coloration also comes naturally from out-board devices such as compressors and EQs, which also distort sound but in very controlled ways in relation to the settings used.  This is why "coloration" can often help a digital mix to feel more "analog".

Again, total discretion is needed in these decisions.  It is obviously undesirable to have a mix turn completely into distortion (and it is easier for this to happen than you may believe; the ears are quickly acclimated to the added distortion and will ask for more).  Try to think of the added tones as a gentle brushing over with water colors rather than thick paint that you would use on a wall that only covers everything underneath it.  The real trickery can be observed when you realize that after a minutes listening, if the settings are right, that it is easier to detect when the unit is switched out, rather than when it is switched into the path.

"Color", don't "Cover".

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aivoryuk

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Re: WASH Version 1 (was new wump anyone??)
« Reply #41 on: November 12, 2007, 11:09:59 AM »

masterhse wrote on Sun, 11 November 2007 17:32

  • Would a BBE or Exciter help in this situation?
  • Could a combination of M/S processing and delay help in repositioning the instruments in the mix?
  • As MEs we are told to "honor the mixers intentions", are there conditions where this is not the case?




well i used clipping on this track so I would class that IMO as a form or exciter harmonic generation. the problem with exciters is that you can get used to the sound very quickly and then everything can come up brighter than you intended.

I tried M/S processing intially by adding some eq on the sides but I felt it caused more problems then it was a solving. and gave it a more unfocused sound particular in the cymbals.

Honoring the mix is a interesting one, One of the main elements of mastering is to make individual tracks sound like a cohesive collection. Now if you have one track out of the selection that sounds very different to the majority of the rest you will prob have to change it so it fits with the rest of the collection.So although you may not be honoring the engineers mix, you're doing it for the greater good.
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masterhse

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Re: WASH Version 1 (AKA wump 14?)
« Reply #42 on: November 12, 2007, 11:52:21 AM »

Once again great feedback!

New question (though not at the exclusion of previous ones):

Would a stem version of this track be helpful? Not that I can get one, just a general question.
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Tom Volpicelli
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johnehartley

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Re: WASH Version 1 (AKA wump 14?)
« Reply #43 on: November 12, 2007, 12:03:36 PM »

Stems could have certainly been useful to have. I think I would have gone for a vocal up version (not a lot though!). With the technology now it doesn't take long to do these different versions/stems at the mixing session and can save a lot of time, money, etc. later.

Really enjoyed doing this - good and challenging. Excellent track with plenty of musicianship, just rather on the dark side and lacking clarity.

Have uploaded my attempt to the WUMP14 folder. Looking forward to hearing what everyone else has done to the track and what comments are made about mine.

Quick breakdown of the process. (All 'in the box')

01. Reduce noise
02. Centre image
03. Transients & Expander
04. Addition of ambient reverb
05. Surgical EQ
06. Analogue emulation
07. Multiband compression (on Low freq)
08. EQs
09. Stereo enhancement
10. Compression
11. Gentle limiting & dither
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Phillip Graham

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Re: WASH Version 1 (AKA wump 14?)
« Reply #44 on: November 12, 2007, 02:04:13 PM »

masterhse wrote on Mon, 12 November 2007 11:52

Once again great feedback!

New question (though not at the exclusion of previous ones):

Would a stem version of this track be helpful? Not that I can get one, just a general question.


Would depend on what the stems had...

If the stems allowed for repanning of the track, or more effective mid-side processing, then they might do some good.

I'm all for unorthodox panning, if it fits the track, but it limits what you can do on the mastering side, at least if you are addicted to M/S like me...

kick/bass/vocals/snare down the middle (ie typical panning) can give a lot of room to work/repair
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