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Author Topic: WASH Version 1 (AKA wump 14)  (Read 23619 times)

masterhse

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WASH Version 1 (AKA wump 14)
« on: November 05, 2007, 09:08:51 PM »

Gentlemen,

I have the student track ready at:
http://www.masteringhouse.com/WASH

Again as mp3 and zipped 44/16 files. Should be a bit of a challenge. Given the noise at the intro it may even require a bit of restoration skills!

Let me know your thoughts, and if there are any issues with the download.

Best,
Tom
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Tom Volpicelli
The Mastering House Inc.
CD Mastering and Media Production Services

Catalin Truta

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Re: WASH Version 1 (was new wump anyone??)
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2007, 06:27:04 AM »

Why a 16bit file? I suppose some ditherig was already applied on it...

masterhse

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Re: WASH Version 1 (was new wump anyone??)
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2007, 10:34:45 AM »

Catalin Truta wrote on Tue, 06 November 2007 06:27

Why a 16bit file? I suppose some ditherig was already applied on it...


The assignment was for the students to create an un-mastered audio CD of the mix. With 20 mixes to review it makes life easier when we can compare mixes, discuss, etc. if it's on CD rather than loading in all 20 into a DAW and trying to do blind comparisons. I'll leave the debate of whether it was properly dithered (or given the level of noise, if it was necessary at all) for discussion here.

I'll apologize in advance if some of the questions I ask seem basic. My intent is to allow folks new to the mastering field (and my students)to learn about some of the basics in this thread.

So my first two questions:

1. How can you tell if a track has been truncated or dithered other than by listening to artifacts?
2. What are the advantages of dithering before applying noise reduction?
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Tom Volpicelli
The Mastering House Inc.
CD Mastering and Media Production Services

aivoryuk

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Re: WASH Version 1 (was new wump anyone??)
« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2007, 01:30:42 PM »

so whens the deadline for the masters and where do we post them???

how many of us are partcipating in this
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gbacklin

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Re: WASH Version 1 (was new wump anyone??)
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2007, 03:04:28 PM »

aivoryuk wrote on Tue, 06 November 2007 12:30

...how many of us are partcipating in this


I'm in.
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masterhse

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Re: WASH Version 1 (was new wump anyone??)
« Reply #5 on: November 06, 2007, 03:19:50 PM »

aivoryuk wrote on Tue, 06 November 2007 13:30

so whens the deadline for the masters and where do we post them???

how many of us are partcipating in this


I guess that it would make the most sense to post here if Brad is good with that so that we can follow running comentary.

How is a max of 10 participants, due in two weeks?
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Tom Volpicelli
The Mastering House Inc.
CD Mastering and Media Production Services

bblackwood

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Re: WASH Version 1 (was new wump anyone??)
« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2007, 03:34:59 PM »

Go for it, my WUMP server is available for use if needed as well.
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Brad Blackwood
euphonic masters

aivoryuk

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Re: WASH Version 1 (was new wump anyone??)
« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2007, 03:37:21 PM »

masterhse wrote on Tue, 06 November 2007 20:19


How is a max of 10 participants, due in two weeks?



Just wondering Tom, what is the background with this track??? how was it recorded etc??? This is obv a different mix to the orginal master that was presented??

One thing I just wanted to check that the high end seems to have a steep drop sone what characteristic of a mp3.

Is there a possibilty that this may have happened???
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Catalin Truta

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Re: WASH Version 1 (was new wump anyone??)
« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2007, 04:22:02 PM »

Regarding the noise/dither/truncation, I believe we need to have the less harm be done to the mixdown even if it's noisy. Truncation will further degrade it, and while I'm not implying you could easily hear the difference between truncation and dither, I would rather have a proper mixed down material if possible. And for that I'd rather have a 24bit version. However I'm not against using the 16bit mix for this wump, though I'm somehow surprised about the chosen resolution.

These things aside, I'm very glad for having the opportunity to participate in this project so I'm in too.


escape

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Re: WASH Version 1 (was new wump anyone??)
« Reply #9 on: November 06, 2007, 06:19:37 PM »

masterhse wrote on Tue, 06 November 2007 10:34


So my first two questions:

1. How can you tell if a track has been truncated or dithered other than by listening to artifacts?
2. What are the advantages of dithering before applying noise reduction?




1.
Use a bit-meter, and look for stuck bits. Bit-Police is a good one, it actually shows the percentage distribution of each bit number. If there is an even distribution especially around the LSBs, then there was most likely dither added. Izotope Ozone has a bit-meter as well. Wavelab also has one built in. Bit-Police is free and VST.

Also an FFT display with a very low noise floor setting and at least 16000 bands sometimes helps confirm suspicions if there was dither or not, depending on what kind of dither it was. You'll see the dither in the display as the music is fading in or out, it is a constant , even, broad-band noise, unless very extreme noise shaping was used. In that case, you would look for a shape of noise that is generally constant underneath all of the actual signal activity.


2.
Dither provides a more or less even distribution of the noise that is there in the first place. This makes it less likely to have artifacts when you are further going to reduce the noise floor with dsp.

Dither helps to mask the noise that is going to be removed, it sort of congeals with the noise and then soaks it up, allowing for smoother low levels of sound.

By dispersing the noise first with dither, it doesn't require such extreme settings from the Noise Reduction software.

And yet another way to describe it is that dither shakes loose the quantization noise that is latched on to the signal you want to keep, so by shaking the distortion loose, it is then easier to come by and sweep it up afterwards along with the other noise that you are trying to clean up.





Oh, yeah, and in case you haven't figured it out,

I'm in. Laughing



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ERIC JENSON
MASTERING ENGINEER
ACOUSTICS ENGINEER(ALMOST)

E-Scapes Mastering Services
Miami, FL

masterhse

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Re: WASH Version 1 (was new wump anyone??)
« Reply #10 on: November 06, 2007, 06:45:31 PM »

aivoryuk wrote on Tue, 06 November 2007 15:37

masterhse wrote on Tue, 06 November 2007 20:19


How is a max of 10 participants, due in two weeks?



Just wondering Tom, what is the background with this track??? how was it recorded etc??? This is obv a different mix to the orginal master that was presented??

One thing I just wanted to check that the high end seems to have a steep drop sone what characteristic of a mp3.

Is there a possibilty that this may have happened???


A very long story regarding this track. It was originally recorded at a local studio here in PA on ADAT (K-Sound). For the slide guitar the tracks were transferred to a Mackie HD system where “Scrappy” Jud Newcomb (Ian McLagen, The Resentments)added slide. Other tracks were also sent to Gurf Morlix (Lucinda Williams, Robert Earl Keen) and Jim Wieder (The Band, Bob Dylan, Keith Richards) but they do not appear here and I digress. Once the HD disk came back the tracks were transferred back to ADAT where the remaining tracks were added. The ADAT tracks were then digitally transferred via I believe Cubase so that they could be imported in Pro Tools (K-Sound did not have Pro Tools at that time). Once in Pro Tools the track that you hear from the CD was mixed by Phil Nicolo in Philly (Dishwalla, Urge Overkill, Hooters, etc.)

Anyways, I had the students take the Pro Tools tracks and transfer them originally to a Radar System to get practice mixing and recording new tracks. Unfortunately a lightning hit took out the Radar System and we had to go back to the original Pro Tools tracks. There was a new bass line and guitar track added to the original set of tracks (just for practice). I then had them sync up a Pro Tools LE system to a 2" machine and transfer all of tracks to analog tape so that they could mix them individually in analog through a Trident Vector Console. The tracks were then mixed to the Pro Tools LE system, bounced, and burned to CD, or mixed directly to CD.

In summary, no the zipped 44/16 one wasn't an mp3 ...

This is absolutely a very different track from what is on the CD and I would be pleasantly surprised if any master done in WASH got close. That's not really the intent with WASH anyway as I see it. For me it's to learn new techniques for dealing with common issues, and to hopefully show what can be done via mastering to a mix that, well, isn't quite up to a pro level yet.
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Tom Volpicelli
The Mastering House Inc.
CD Mastering and Media Production Services

masterhse

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Re: WASH Version 1 (was new wump anyone??)
« Reply #11 on: November 06, 2007, 06:56:30 PM »

escape wrote on Tue, 06 November 2007 18:19


1.
Use a bit-meter, and look for stuck bits. Bit-Police is a good one, it actually shows the percentage distribution of each bit number. ...


Beautiful, thanks for the input Eric!

So current list seems to be:

Catalin Truta
Alex Ivory
Eric Jenson
G. Backlin

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Tom Volpicelli
The Mastering House Inc.
CD Mastering and Media Production Services

Luke Fellingham

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Re: WASH Version 1 (was new wump anyone??)
« Reply #12 on: November 07, 2007, 04:01:31 AM »

Can I join in?

ATOR

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Re: WASH Version 1 (was new wump anyone??)
« Reply #13 on: November 07, 2007, 04:21:46 AM »

I'm in.
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Pieter Vincenten - ATORmastering

johnehartley

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Re: WASH Version 1 (was new wump anyone??)
« Reply #14 on: November 07, 2007, 04:33:46 AM »

Newbie here. Is it possible for me to join in please?

Cheers
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